Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#401

Post by ClumsyPilot » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 10:50 AM UTC

37383265253 wrote: post #223

ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

Why would you prosecute people who were given permission by the relevant authorities? >The call-tracking effort began without court authorization under President George W. Bush following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. So the PotUS gave them the authority. >A similar program was approved by the secretive FISA Court beginning in 2006 and renewed numerous times, but the 9th Circuit panel said those rulings were…

> "defend terrorists and their supporters"

So in your mind, as soon as someone is accused of being a terrorist, no proof is needed. You can just proceed straight to torture.

Oh boy, I wonder if such a system could even be abused? You are basically supporting Gulags and because you think it can't possibly happen to you.

> Why would you prosecute people who were given permission by the relevant authorities?

Nuremberg trials, just following orders?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#402

Post by kelnos » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 11:28 AM UTC

erikerikson wrote: post #374

kelnos wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the money still has to come from somewhere, and that's from appropriations authorized by Congress. Now, if you believe that these agencies have amassed and hoarded enough of the money they've already been given that they now have an endowment that can perpetually fund their activities, then yes, that would mean you really can't stop them. But I'd find it hard to believe that's the case; what they do is not…

https://www.iqt.org/

Not sure what your point is. Sure, the 3-letter agencies have an investment arm, but the capital used for those investments is a tiny fraction of their operating budget. And that capital still comes from Congress' appropriations.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#403

Post by kelnos » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 11:30 AM UTC

brobdingnagians wrote: post #371

kelnos wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the money still has to come from somewhere, and that's from appropriations authorized by Congress. Now, if you believe that these agencies have amassed and hoarded enough of the money they've already been given that they now have an endowment that can perpetually fund their activities, then yes, that would mean you really can't stop them. But I'd find it hard to believe that's the case; what they do is not…

I'm not so sure they would go away without a fight. These are people who gave grown accustomed to breaking laws (including US laws), fomenting coups, and even assassinations in order to gain control. If Congress was seriously threatening to abolish them, Congressmen might start having a sharp uptick in "accidents". That's the problem with getting in bed with dubious characters.

Oh, certainly. But I find it hard to believe that these agencies would keep the support of the public if they started assassinating Congresspeople. At some point there's too much opposition to make it feasible to continue on.

Really, though, I'd expect them to maintain Congress' support through non-lethal means. Bribery, blackmail, stuff like that. A Congressperson in your pocket is much more useful than a suspiciously-dead body.

But still, if US citizens as a whole really wanted them gone, they'd just continue voting in people who will take a hard line against funding them.

I don't expect something like this to come to pass, mind you, but it's possible.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#404

Post by StavrosK » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 11:48 AM UTC

vinay427 wrote: post #375

StavrosK wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I expressed horror and outrage at the notion that the TSA can go through your luggage, an American friend told me "well if it keeps us safe...", so I'd say "afraid".

First of all, it's not at all clear that this implies fear as I understand the emotion. More tangentially, as I usually fly outside the US, it's fair to say that this is far from just an American reality. For example, the Dublin Airport even explicitly mentions that hold baggage may also be searched by hand on their website: > "Both your carry-on luggage and check-in baggage will be checked by means of detection equi…

Maybe they have provisions, but the only time I've had my luggage searched was in the US.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#405

Post by macspoofing » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #244

macspoofing wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Following orders or implementing a law that violates citizens right should come with criminal consequence. But we don't live in a world where things work like you think they should work. In this world, there was no crime, and a court opinion of some aspects of one kind of law does not lead to criminal indictment. That is a better world then the imaginary world that lives in your head. You do realize government is ru…

The constitution is a contract between the people and govetnment where both parties operating under rule of law agree to abide by those terms. Nobody gives a shit because if government breaks the terms of this contract there is no direct consequence. But if the people break this contract there is all sorts of punishment. I don't agree with you about shutting down the economy and mask wearing (because government has c…

Again, you imagined a world that doesn't exist. Your interpretation of how things should work, is just that, YOUR personal interpretation. You're literally arguing that if a decades old law is overturned by a court, it should result in criminal indictments of ... who exactly? Congress that passed and funded this law? What the heck.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#406

Post by _emacsomancer_ » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

tialaramex wrote: post #338

AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

They're spooks. This is what they're for. The constraints are at best just theatre, obviously their adversaries aren't going to obey these rules, and they know that so if they are to be effective (and if they aren't why would they exist at all?) they will also disobey these rules. The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You…

Certainly you could have spooks and not grant them unlimited power.

And, in the case of bulk collection, it's quite obviously made them worse at doing what they're supposed to be doing.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#407

Post by dav43 » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #257

Unfortunately, this is: 1) Only a 3 judge panel, so their will be an appeal for the full court to here the case. 2) Not yet over even if the full panel agrees, because then it will be appealed to the Supreme Court. So it could still be years before the issue is finally

The fact this has taken so long to process - and by all means not complete yet - doesn’t paint a pretty picture of the system as a whole.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#408

Post by MichaelMoser123 » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 12:14 PM UTC

AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

i wonder if this this state of affairs is the result of the patriot act [1]; or did they have similar regulations in the US before that event?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act,_Title_II

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#409

Post by darksaints » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 12:38 PM UTC

lehi wrote: post #166

ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

A reminder that a CIA officer who oversaw, ordered, and participated in systematic detainee torture, then wrote the order to destroy the evidential tapes of said torture, was not only not punished or prosecuted but promoted to the current Director of the agency. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_CIA_interrogation_videota... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Haspel

These are war crimes. Someone convicted of torture in the way that CIA officials have authorized could be sentenced to life imprisonment. The only problem is that the US is not a party to the ICC (probably because so many power holders are guilty of war crimes), so we do not pursue war crime trials.

I would like to see a concerted effort to document these crimes, issue warrants for arrest, and have customs officials in all ICC-party states ready to flag and arrest any suspected war criminal, in order to extradite for ICC trial. Some countries do this already but we need all of the ICC-party states to do it.

And yes, I get that they would likely just never travel to countries where they may be arrested. But for the powerful, that in itself is a punishment. They may not serve prison time, but we can take away their European vacations.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#410

Post by imglorp » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 12:49 PM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #399

maeln wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not toothless, they put them in those positions of power and do so gladly. Remember that Snowden always said he was ready to come back to the U.S and be trialled, as long as the trial wouldn't be a secret trial. Those who created the laws for those secret trial where not the CIA or the NSA, it was politician. The same way they made it so that it is forbidden to talk about the programs of certain agencies, ev…

Far as I understand the first director the FBI J. Edgar Hoover had blackmail on a lot of federal politicians. Which is why he left his position feet first. When Hoover died Nixon replaced him with someone with no previous ties to the agency. The CIA has deep ties to the American upper classes. And probably serves their interests over the states. Or their own interests. Aldrich Ames was living well beyond is means for…

Right. Look at the din over the Epstein stuff, due to covering/blackmailing/etc over the misbehavior by a small group.

Then imagine a single entity that has every domestic text, phone call, and email ever sent, searchable and indexed, on any politician, judge, or candidate. It's far, far, more power than merely spying on foreign powers.