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Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

psychologytoday.com

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Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#61

Post by nicoffeine »

molticrystal wrote: post #38

We could rationalize an opposite hypothesis as well, perhaps they are adaptive responses to lack of adversity. It would be interesting if a good experiment can be formulated to figure it out. One rationale is that life for billions of years and humans for millions have faced harsh conditions never letting us rest and relax for long. So if we are sitting still, relaxing, often it meant something must be wrong(physical…

I have had similar thoughts. I think that's why exercise is so much more effective than medicine - it's making your lower physiological self think that you are doing something important and exciting. It also explains why people get so invested in the drama of others. In economically developed countries, we have far fewer life and death situations that help us appreciate it when things are going well.

The other difficulty is that our higher order functions know that exercise is, in the short term, a waste of energy and time. It's not getting us any more resources. I include myself in the subset of people with impulse and procrastination issues, which makes it very difficult to invest in things that pay off over the long term. Depression for me is being stuck in that hole, knowing there may be a way to feel better, but believing the world would be better if I was dead. Maybe my evolutionary contribution would have been as a martyr if I lived in a different circumstance.

More generally, healthcare suffers from the idea that there is "a" population. Our brains and bodies are unique, and until they can identify types of brain patterns and perform studies against those, it's really throwing pills at someone and hoping for the best. Some parts of science have entered into a dangerous dogmatic phase of "this is how we've always done it" which is the opposite of the point.

I would really like to see the mental health community rally behind getting people into recovery-style support groups where people encourage each other to socialize, eat healthier, and get more exercise. That would put all three of the most effective ways to fight depression and anxiety into practice. Of course then the problem is that prescribing virtually free services isn't in the economic interest of for-profit systems.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#62

Post by dboreham »

mamon wrote: post #35
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is whether it's adaptive , i.e. whether it has evolved because it is beneficial (such as our pain aversion), rather than arising as an unfortunate bug in the system (such as cystic fibrosis, a genetic disorder which seems pretty clearly not to be adaptive).

Of course PTSD is beneficial: it gets you discharged from military, for example, so the chances of you being in the situation where someone is shooting bazooka at you drop to zero. In general PTSD helps you avoid traumatic experience in future.

Extra points for using the word "bazooka".

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#63

Post by podgaj »

slfnflctd wrote: post #52

At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed. I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit. Furthermore - and perhaps m…

Do you realize these two sentences say the same exact thing? You have a pain, which is a signal of a disorder, and you need to change something to fix it.

"At first I viewed the depression I started fighting in my teens as a scourge, a defect, something broken to be fixed."

"I have since come to see it as an important signal. When I am managing my life and mental states well, it often fades into the background. When it starts to flare up, like with some kind of physical pain, that's telling me I need to pay attention and change things up a bit."

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#64

Post by leto_ii »

podgaj wrote: post #47
leto_ii wrote: post #16

Here's a personal anecdote of the moment when I realized that perhaps mental disorders are not disorders at all: A few years ago I had a job that made me deeply unhappy. The unhappiness came about gradually, but in my last year there it was overwhelming. In my last year on the job I spent a good chunk of my working hours holding back feelings of deep frustration and anger over how things were progressing and over how…

This is like saying people with heart disease do not have a disease because they stopped eating poorly and the heart disease went away. You did have a metal disorder. You were just lucky to find the cause. The cause was job stress. I have a mental disorder that was harder to find the cause. But I did as well.

> You did have a metal disorder. You were just lucky to find the cause. The cause was job stress.

You could phrase it that way, but the fact remains that for me, I feel, there was an objective external cause to my unhappiness. It wasn't a spontaneous and inexplicable 'chemical imbalance in the brain'. It was a reasonable reaction to a shitty life experience.

> I have a mental disorder that was harder to find the cause. But I did as well.

Indeed I may have stated my conclusion too broadly. I'm sure there are problems out there that can't be fixed by changing your lifestyle/job etc. and that may require serious effort, therapy, medication.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#65

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

framecowbird wrote: post #4

I'm most surprised to learn that this _isn't_ the current prevailing view in the medical profession. I am not a doctor, but it's always seemed more natural to me to view depression and anxiety as adaptive behaviours - albeit perhaps ones that can end up being triggered too far. I read an article once (wish I could find it) that one advantage of mild depression was as sort a "call for help and support" from other embe…

I'm not a doctor, but I was also very surprised that this is "news" to the medical world. I has just always assumed that this was a well known thing, because it just seems completely logical to me.

Just asking "what could the evolutionary purpose of depression be?" should already lead to the conclusion that it's most likely a mental defense mechanism, or byproduct of one, that can most likely be triggered by experiences rather than just be part of a persons genetics.

But apparently it wasn't all that obvious after all.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#66

Post by tokai »

raducu wrote: post #13
framecowbird wrote: post #4

I'm most surprised to learn that this _isn't_ the current prevailing view in the medical profession. I am not a doctor, but it's always seemed more natural to me to view depression and anxiety as adaptive behaviours - albeit perhaps ones that can end up being triggered too far. I read an article once (wish I could find it) that one advantage of mild depression was as sort a "call for help and support" from other embe…

Because this actually IS the prevailing view, but it is not really actionable. What is the alternative to drugs? A real advantage of depression is you won't challenge authority so you'll be more likely to appease the Alpha members of the group. So what? How would this help a doctor treat a mental health patient?

> A real advantage of depression is you won't challenge authority

Not true. It can give a fatalistic outlook and raise aggression. I know a (depressed) guy that almost got himself killed in traffic, because he would rather die than yielding to a pushy road user.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#67

Post by podgaj »

vanderZwan wrote: post #50

> If ADHD is not a disorder, but a mismatch with a human environment, then suddenly it’s not a medical issue. It’s an issue for educational reform. And that is a compelling thought, given the evidence that kids’ focus and cognition are improved by physical activity. Still, we need to take this study with a grain of salt. There is a large body of research showing other biological factors when it comes to ADHD. For ins…

Thank you, yes, I said the same thing in another reply.

I am Bipolar getting by without meds. I do not have a disorder, I have a difference. So I need to live and eat differently.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#68

Post by wittyreference »

framecowbird wrote: post #4

I'm most surprised to learn that this _isn't_ the current prevailing view in the medical profession. I am not a doctor, but it's always seemed more natural to me to view depression and anxiety as adaptive behaviours - albeit perhaps ones that can end up being triggered too far. I read an article once (wish I could find it) that one advantage of mild depression was as sort a "call for help and support" from other embe…

Largely because articles like this generally focus on what I think of as “layman’s depression”, or “layman’s anxiety.” That is, a mild form of the condition that straddles the gray area between “personality” and “mild personality disorder,” that diminishes quality of life in a perceptible but not devastating way.

Then you go work on a psych floor and meet people whose depression is so severe it induces catatonia; people who look and feel like zombies and who would end their lives if given the chance; people whose depression comes with a healthy side-order of delusions. Extreme things that render someone incapable of even mild functioning.

Or severe anxiety - patients whose worry comes from no external stimulant, renders them incapable of anything but physically sickening levels of worry, and if you manage to somehow help them reason through the thing they are currently worried about ... find a new thing to attach their emotions to. Look at something like OCD, wherein one - for instance - May obsessively wash hands to stymie an overpowering anxiety that ones house may burn down (OCD sometimes has logical triggers between ritual and anxiety; often not.)

Interpreting that as “an adaptive response” is ridiculous.

An adaptive response “taken too far”, on the other hand, is the very definition of wide swaths of disease - autoimmune, cancer, etc.

I find the “gosh it’s just cultural mismatch” theory to be a modern stigma against mental disease. You can break any bone or system in the body - except for neuro/behavioral, that’s just another type of person that needs some cultural adaptation. /That’s/ never really broken.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#69

Post by leto_ii »

ddorian43 wrote: post #18
leto_ii wrote: post #16

Here's a personal anecdote of the moment when I realized that perhaps mental disorders are not disorders at all: A few years ago I had a job that made me deeply unhappy. The unhappiness came about gradually, but in my last year there it was overwhelming. In my last year on the job I spent a good chunk of my working hours holding back feelings of deep frustration and anger over how things were progressing and over how…

Sorry man, the therapist can't prescribe. You are free to read "The body keeps the score" to understand why everything you wrote is wrong/false. To the downvoters: Things in life are in different levels. Your knee may hurt a little, you may tear 1 ACL in your knee, you tear all ligaments in your knee, your knee got chopped off, etc etc. Going to the doctor, doesn't 100% mean your knee will go into surgery. Sometimes,…

> everything you wrote is wrong/false.

Well now, this is a bit too harsh. I presented my anecdote as such, not as some universal conclusion that applies to everybody and every life situation.

> Going to the doctor, doesn't 100% mean your knee will go into surgery.

You are right. I do however feel that psychiatry is not exactly as much of a science as other medical fields. I'm not convinced that what is considered a disorder according to the DSM is exactly as much a disorder as, let's say, a vision defect. I'm also really reluctant to try out medication that will alter my mood and mental acuity in unpredictable ways. As much as possible I would prefer to not take things for years and to not end up depending on them for good functioning in the world.

Re: Anxiety, depression, and PTSD may be adaptive responses to adversity: study

#70

Post by insickness »

Trying to decide if mental disorders are disorders or adaptations is a false dichotomy. They can be both. For example, the 'dark triad', narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy, can help an individual succeed. Studies have shown that women are attracted to these personality traits in men.

On a group level, anxiety in individuals may be evolutionarily advantageous to the group while being disadvantageous to the individual. If a person is hyper alert, it may help the group to become aware of danger but cause tremendous stress to the individual.

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