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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#311

Post by Voliokis »

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #306
Ansil849 wrote: post #291

This question is meant in good faith, not to be facetious but out of a genuine lack of understanding: now what? If this action was ruled illegal, then someone in the chain of command ordered this illegal action - in other words did something illegal. Is the individual who ordered the illegal action going to be disciplined? Is anyone?

The statute of limitations has expired for prosecuting the person responsible. https://sensenbrenner.house.gov/2018/3/james-clapper-not-cha...

Why is there a statute of limitations for government officials? This shouldn't be a thing when you're entrusted with the responsibilities that you are concerning an entire country and its citizens.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#312

Post by microcolonel »

Voliokis wrote: post #311
Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statute of limitations has expired for prosecuting the person responsible. https://sensenbrenner.house.gov/2018/3/james-clapper-not-cha...

Why is there a statute of limitations for government officials? This shouldn't be a thing when you're entrusted with the responsibilities that you are concerning an entire country and its citizens.

When it comes to elected officials, there could be a concern that time gives the successors an opportunity to just make up the evidence.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#313

Post by vorpalhex »

Voliokis wrote: post #311
Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statute of limitations has expired for prosecuting the person responsible. https://sensenbrenner.house.gov/2018/3/james-clapper-not-cha...

Why is there a statute of limitations for government officials? This shouldn't be a thing when you're entrusted with the responsibilities that you are concerning an entire country and its citizens.

The ability to defend yourself of a charge disappears over time. Evidence "rots" as weird as that sounds.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#314

Post by raincom »

mLuby wrote: post #143
raincom wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in rare circumstances, "collective responsibility" is very hard to prove in the courts of law. When a large section of a society dislikes certain thing, yes, it is possible to prosecute groups. When is this possible? Crimes against humanity is one such example. Or going after mafia or biker gangs. Otherwise, at some time or another, it is very easy to convict influential sections of a society. That's why judge…

I'm not saying to punish a group of individuals individually, but to disband the group itself for a time. If individuals also broke the law, then of course they should be punished accordingly.

I don't disagree with your original points. It is an issue of enforcement. Collusion between individuals or between groups is really hard to prove, except in war crimes/mafia wars/etc.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#315

Post by cortesoft »

Ansil849 wrote: post #294
alfiedotwtf wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, of course nobody will be disciplined

Cynicism aside, I genuinely don't understand how the legal system works where an action may be found illegal - with no actual penalties despite organizations and persons having committed that action.

Part of the issue is that, until a court case like this, it isn't certain whether something is illegal or not.

It took a lot of back and forth in court to determine that this was illegal.

Now, if someone does it again...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#317

Post by mLuby »

Thorentis wrote: post #296
mLuby wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The org must be accountable for its actions (or inactions). It's the org's responsibility to make sure its agents don't mess up when acting under its authority. Hire employees who are trustworthy and competent, fire those who aren't, and provide training and oversight to ensure compliance. That's a reasonable minimum bar. Separately, if a person breaks a law, they should be punished for that. And remember, judgements…

An org is made up of people. You can't punish an org without punishing people. So you have to decide who to punish. Do you punish the entire population by removing an org that is there to protect them? Or do you punish the individuals inside and outside of the org that are responsible for making those bad decisions?

You have it backwards: the entire population is punishing the org for failing to protect them.

And yes, that hurts the population a little bit, just as imprisoning individuals hurts civic society and the economy.

To mangle a great line: we are entitled to rise and sleep under the blanket of the very freedom the NSA provides AND question the manner in which they provide it.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#318

Post by cortesoft »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #188
DennisP wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the courts could make a distinction between "ok this was unclear" and "this was obvious, egregious and deserving of penalties." And while throwing Congress in jail seems unworkable, disqualifying members from reelection in egregious cases might be doable (though of course it would require a constitutional amendment).

> election Congress was elected. If they are doing a bad job, the voters can recall them. There's no need for lower officials to deal with them. If the majority of the voters are wrong, then your "democratic nations of laws" is dead.

The whole point of the bill of rights and many parts of the constitution is to protect ourselves from mob rule... just because 50.1% of the people think it is ok to remove the rights of 10% of the people doesn't mean they are allowed to do that. We have a lot of checks against the 'will of the majority'

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#319

Post by Voliokis »

jgust wrote: post #27
brlewis wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Throwing out a prediction: If the Biden/Harris ticket wins in 2020 and Trump is charged with anything, expect a pardon from the president. People will rage for a bit, get tired, run out of attention span, and move on to the next controversy.

I don't think Biden could do that. It would be as bad as, if not worse, than another 4 years of Trump as president. It would mean that there are no standards by which a president is held accountable, and considering how many lives he has cost and the corrupt things he has done betraying the country, it would make the next Republican presidency that much worse.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#320

Post by [deleted] »

cortesoft wrote: post #315
Ansil849 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynicism aside, I genuinely don't understand how the legal system works where an action may be found illegal - with no actual penalties despite organizations and persons having committed that action.

Part of the issue is that, until a court case like this, it isn't certain whether something is illegal or not. It took a lot of back and forth in court to determine that this was illegal. Now, if someone does it again...

[deleted]
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