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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#11

Post by HenryKissinger »

ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

Probably never, since the metadata collection program was legally governed by Section 215 of the Patriot Act from 2001 to 2015, which modified the FISA Act. The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 further enshrined the legal basis of the program. You can't prosecute people retroactively. Even if you could, it's unclear exactly who that should be.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#12

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #8
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

The intelligence community has been above the law in the United States for a long, long time. The ability to classify (and hence shield from oversight or accountability) any action which is deemed "in the interest of national security" was codified in the National Security Act of 1947 which created the CIA and NSA.

EO12333 includes a fourth amendment bypass for people subject to background investigations. It's easy to redirect that capability for the general population.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#13

Post by R0b0t1 »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

It is impossible to hold civil servants accountable at all levels of government. As long as you believe you were operating within the law, regardless of if you were or not and what effect that may have had on other people, you seem to be unapproachable.

Eventually this is going to lead to civil servants being lynched.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#14

Post by dimitrios1 »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common.

https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#15

Post by ncmncm »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #11
ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

Probably never, since the metadata collection program was legally governed by Section 215 of the Patriot Act from 2001 to 2015, which modified the FISA Act. The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 further enshrined the legal basis of the program. You can't prosecute people retroactively. Even if you could, it's unclear exactly who that should be.

Permission was retroactive.

At the time of the offenses, the perps knew they were violating the law. If the law authorizing the action is found unconstitutional, then that retroactive permission has been withdrawn. There is no question of "double jeopardy", because they never faced trial.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#16

Post by macspoofing »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

>How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it?

The program (and it's replacement) has been around for two decades. It was passed into law by Congress, administered by the executive branch and justice department, funded by Congress, and overseen by the Judiciary and Congress. So punish who? And for what crime? Based on what law? That the the ninth-circuit ruled that the collection overstepped some bounds is not a criminal indictment, but rather a normal part of the process. And who knows if it won't be reversed.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#17

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Be careful what you wish for.

Mandatory sentencing removes any possibility of judicial discretion.

And then there's the problem that gaol tends not to reform people.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#18

Post by warent »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #14
_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

Wow, this is an outstanding post and could probably be an HN submission in its own right. Thank you for sharing.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#19

Post by johnnyo »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

The problem with your idea is that the court is sometimes weighing/balancing competing rights and responsibilities from separate parts of the Constitution.

For example, when is a church’s hiring practice an equal protection violation? Or is it an exercise of freedom of religion?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#20

Post by [deleted] »

warent wrote: post #18
dimitrios1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

Wow, this is an outstanding post and could probably be an HN submission in its own right. Thank you for sharing.

[deleted]
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