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What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

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Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#61

Post by rbecker »

asplake wrote: post #60
rbecker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the system will ultimately compensate through interviewing, delayed starts, etc. A roundabout way of saying that some students that would have been accepted to their chosen college, won't be, because their grades weren't as inflated as their competitions. Isn't that also potentially irreparable harm, not just "some unfairness"?

There’s a massive difference between not getting your preferred place and being denied the opportunity even to apply

So you would consider using the algorithmicaly adjusted grades an improvement, if in case of a failing grade, the teacher's estimate was used instead?

And a follow-up question: How many such cases were there? Where the adjusted estimate failed a student, but the teacher's estimate didn't?

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#62

Post by remus »

Aerroon wrote: post #44
remus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a classic political no-win situation: if you go with an algorithm then anyone who gets a lower than predicted grade is going to complain (and of course has every right to, as any algorithm is likely to unfairly disadvantage some section of the population). If you give everyone their predicted grades then you're accepting massive grade inflation which makes the grades far less useful as a predictor of a…

There is another alternative though: do the damn test. Then everyone gets the grade that they earned.

That assumes that all pupils have had an equal opportunity to study through lock down. I'd speculate that pupils from poorer backgrounds will not have had the same opportunities to study as those from better off backgrounds, so pupils from poorer backgrounds would be disproportionately disadvantaged.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#64

Post by heavenlyblue »

makomk wrote: post #18

In reality, I think this fiasco has more to do with politics than algorithms. One of the big problems is that the alternatives had downsides which were largely glossed over for political reasons - for example the university growth cap isn't just an arbitrary creation, it exists to stop more prestigious universities siphoning off a disproportionate share of students and leaving less prestigious ones in deep trouble an…

If public schools inflate the marks of the students, why the private students wouldn’t then go to public schools to get better marks?

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#65

Post by heavenlyblue »

simonh wrote: post #37
supernova87a wrote: post #22

This virus situation has (or will) produce a lost year of productivity. But people don't want to admit that and are still trying to operate under old constraints or processes. It will break somewhere. They want to keep schools running, and years / classes of students progressing through. But they also want to have some semblance of standards, without being able to teach properly or assess progress properly. All these…

It's not about passing the test though, it's about sorting out who gets to go to university and who doesn't. If the training of pilots one year was compromised so none of them could certified, we'd go a year without certifying any new pilots. We'd cope somehow. Universities can't go a year without any new students though, that's just not a reasonable outcome. On the face of it basing grades on predicted outcomes and…

You can’t learn to fly without really flying (although that is also probably arguable - there should some skills which are transferable from simulators). However a lot of western higher education is based on giving enough info on how to study yourself.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#66

Post by nicky0 »

makomk wrote: post #33
_0o6v wrote: post #26

Having worked with engineers and software managers in the UK Government, it doesn't surprise me that this was such a fuckup. The solution would have been not to completely close schools in the first place - there was no evidence that children were particularly susceptible to COVID or at risk then, and there's lots of evidence now that they aren't. Exams could well have taken place as normal - exam halls are, by defin…

Not closing schools was the government's preferred option for exactly the reason you point out. Unfortunately, the teachers' unions had different views on the matter and it's rather difficult to keep schools open without teachers, especially when they can easily just carry out a mass sick-out. Exam halls are probably a bit of a transmission risk though since they involve a bunch of people who wouldn't normally mix si…

Also once the schools have been closed it becomes a lot harder to properly prepare the pupils for the exams.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#67

Post by pbhjpbhj »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #64
makomk wrote: post #18

In reality, I think this fiasco has more to do with politics than algorithms. One of the big problems is that the alternatives had downsides which were largely glossed over for political reasons - for example the university growth cap isn't just an arbitrary creation, it exists to stop more prestigious universities siphoning off a disproportionate share of students and leaving less prestigious ones in deep trouble an…

If public schools inflate the marks of the students, why the private students wouldn’t then go to public schools to get better marks?

It's a one off event.

If it weren't then of course private schools might also start giving more generous estimates.

But, also parents might still prefer a better education rather than a higher grade.

FYI public schools are private schools in the UK, the nomenclature is rubbish.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#68

Post by renewiltord »

Why not just hold the tests, except outside and far apart. They have stadiums and stuff. Honestly, this whole thing seems like a manufactured problem.

You could hold them outside, and stagger them so there are ten papers, and then just normal-curve-adjust to the first paper.

Other countries already do multi-day tests easily. And if you don't want to do curving, just treat it the way you treat GREs/IELTS/TOEFL etc. Don't curve and just use overall percentile.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#69

Post by pbhjpbhj »

remus wrote: post #62
Aerroon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another alternative though: do the damn test. Then everyone gets the grade that they earned.

That assumes that all pupils have had an equal opportunity to study through lock down. I'd speculate that pupils from poorer backgrounds will not have had the same opportunities to study as those from better off backgrounds, so pupils from poorer backgrounds would be disproportionately disadvantaged.

Which is probably true normally to a lesser extent. If you don't have a good place at home to do your homework.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#70

Post by nicoburns »

rbecker wrote: post #55
asplake wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ofqual Chairman Says It Was A "Fundamental Mistake" To Believe Algorithm Grades "Would Ever Be Acceptable" https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/ofqual-algorithm-m...

"Students will now receive grades based on their teacher’s estimate of what their grade would have been" But if those estimates are improved using statistics, there's a political fallout. There's some valid criticism of the algorithm used (far less than that BBC article tries to imply), but there's no question the algorithm's estimates were more accurate. So much ink was spilled calling the algorithm biased for its 4…

> there's no question the algorithm's estimates were more accurate.

Some people were predicted A's and given U's by the algorithm. It might have been less biased as an average. But it's results were nevertheless completely unacceptable.

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