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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#361

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

thatcat wrote: post #230
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my less than complete research it seems the ranges are based from 27k-37k. Either way, that doesn't seem to to bad. So based on that number being relatively true, is that too high? Why is that too high?

It's too high if the degree doesn't lead to employment or is not useful in employment. Consider the cost over a lifetime: it is much more than 27-37k after it is paid off and there is no way to discharge the debt. It's a risk that is put on students who are 17-18 and the effect is essentially to increase worker desperation of 21-22 year olds - suppressing labor costs to employers while increasing the monthly bills of…

> Why should students pay for this while living for 4 years in poverty conditions when there is arguably little tangible benefit beyond checking a box required by employers?

They wouldn't. But there is a tangible benefit for many, that is why they are willing to spend this money to go to school.

No one forces kids to go to school at 18 just like it doesn't force kids to blow money on credit cards and rack up debt, or buy cars on ridiculous interest rate loans, or spend high rent in over-priced apartments so they can be near the cool bars. No one forces kids to go to the private school for 40k a year over a local school at half the price.

No one forces parents to not save more money for college, or to help their kids more.

The fact that these things continue is evidence enough - the cost benefit is college is still worth it. I've seen little (besides rich white Silicon Valley types who are loaded railing against the establishment)evidence otherwise.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#362

Post by ericmay »

sudosysgen wrote: post #266
pb7 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's roughly how much public in-state universities cost in the United States on average[0]. Some states are significantly cheaper. [0] https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...

Wait. You're comparing total cost in France, to cost at the point of use excluding taxes in the US. Education in public in-state universities is also highly subsidized.

Is it highly subsidized? Any reason to think that is the case?

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#363

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

google234123 wrote: post #255
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.

Most programs I've seen have students starting research immediately. Sometimes you might have a few months of rotations through different groups.

Every friend I have (or ex-wife :) with a US PhD (this spans physics, history, computer science, physiology, geology) did classes for the first 2 years (roughly).

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#364

Post by chmod775 »

Terr_ wrote: post #279
silvestrov wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the cost to tax payers in Europe is less than what people in USA have to pay the college. This is because my University (in Europe) had no sport facilities whatsoever , not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. It did teaching + research, and nothing else.

One theory goes that the whole "College ranking" apparatus has created a "race to the most affluent" situation, since high tuition costs have no negative effect on a College's ranking, and if you don't spend on facilities and things to up your ranking, then you'll lose customers to the competitor who does.

Aren't college rankings mostly using the bullshit "citation" metric, for which researchers optimize by forming citation rings? [1]

[1] not to mention self-citations, which is probably half of all citations in the US vs roughly 1/4th of them in most other places: https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?order=au&ord=desc*

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#365

Post by gammarator »

sudosysgen wrote: post #266
pb7 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's roughly how much public in-state universities cost in the United States on average[0]. Some states are significantly cheaper. [0] https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...

Wait. You're comparing total cost in France, to cost at the point of use excluding taxes in the US. Education in public in-state universities is also highly subsidized.

Those state subsidies have steadily been eroded over the time period under discussion--part of why tuition has increased. At most large state flagships, public funding is now a significant minority of revenue.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#366

Post by jefftk »

apta wrote: post #350
jefftk wrote: post #10

> the feds should handle student loans the same way they handle medicaid/medicare reimbursement. I'm not sure how anyone looks at our health care reimbursement system and the decides that's the approach to apply to fix anything else? Personally, I'd like to see: * Employers are allowed to test students to see what they can do, but not evaluate them based on whether they went to school or where. * Make student loan de…

The real solution is to ban lending with interest. We have known that usurious lending is a parasitic practice for thousands of years, how did we not learn?

Are you suggesting we run everything on equity? Lend without interest (why would the lender be interested)? Something else?

Our society uses debt for an enormous number of things: business loans, car loans, mortgages. Simply prohibiting these seems like a cure worse than the disease?

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#367

Post by SilasX »

tptacek wrote: post #359
SilasX wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you clarify what that's responding to? I don't see the connection to my point.

If college were priced purely as a positional good, tuitions at lower-tier schools would be be sharply lower than those of upper-tier schools. In Illinois, SIU and NIU cost approximately as much as UIUC, the state flagship.

>If college were priced purely as a positional good, tuitions at lower-tier schools would be be sharply lower than those of upper-tier schools.

Price (to the buyer) is more than just tuition -- the more prestigious ones are more selective, which is effectively a higher price. It has to charge that higher "price" (selectivity) in order to maintain its prestige. And generally the correlation holds, between prestige and price, even if it's not perfect.

If there really is no difference between those colleges you listed, except that one degree is worth more but costs the same, then I agree I can't explain that.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#368

Post by stakkur »

stakkur wrote: post #188

It's a factor, but I disagree that it's the root cause. That distinction goes to the quiet destruction of aid by Ronald Reagan. The rapid shift towards loan-based support is directly linked to Reagan's targeted policies--and that shift led to a well-documented explosion in tuition costs. And Reagan's legacy didn't just affect higher ed--it put public K-12 on the path to the financial and 'common core' shitshow that i…

I'm honestly baffled by the downvotes. Do readers not know that what I described is what led to what the article claims as the cause? To simplify: it wasn't who guaranteed the loans that was the problem, it was the expansion of loans and their general replacement of grants that led to cost inflation and the resulting crippling debt.

Here's just one of hundreds of explanations of how Reagan fucked higher ed. It's not a theory--it's a very basic and well-documented fact.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/09/colleg...

From that article: "The shift began in the 1980s, in terms of a changing political philosophy. President Ronald Reagan’s budget director, David Stockman, said in 1981, “If people want to go to college bad enough, then there is opportunity and responsibility on their part to finance their way through the best way they can.” When those who argued that college is a private benefit framed it like that, it became logical to say that education should be paid for by the people that it benefits. And so in the 1990s, the vast expansion of loans for higher education began."

And you can track--with plentiful data--the rise of college costs in direct parallel to this shift, year over year.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#369

Post by jldugger »

triceratops wrote: post #335
jldugger wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Title IX ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX#Equity_in_athletics ) has pretty broadly been interpreted as meaning equal funding. So scholarships you allocate to men's football needs to be equally funded in women's scholarships. IDK what the OP is talking about, beacuse there's no way the status quo changes until Title IX is repealed.

Equal funding, yes, but not necessarily to the same sports. They're allowed to take into account interest and participation. Otherwise, wouldn't we see million-dollar coaches for women's college football teams too? (I actually don't know of any women's college football teams, for that matter)

I never said equal sports; but pretty much any women's sport doesn't draw in enough ticket sales to justify its existence based on profits alone.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#370

Post by google234123 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #363
google234123 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most programs I've seen have students starting research immediately. Sometimes you might have a few months of rotations through different groups.

Every friend I have (or ex-wife :) with a US PhD (this spans physics, history, computer science, physiology, geology) did classes for the first 2 years (roughly).

You can do both at the same time.
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