Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993 • Hacker News Board

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#241

Post by t0mbstone » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

121789 wrote: post #233

t0mbstone wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is why schools like Khan Academy aren't accredited? Why can't we have free online courses for everyone, where the only costs are the actual free market costs that go towards staff required for administration, courseware development, instructors, and test proctoring? Why should a college degree from an online university cost a fortune, if the course material remains mostly unchanged from year to year…

Because this is all driven by initial post-university employment (and to some extent post-graduate degrees). Employers use university as a screen for jobs, and perceive candidate value based on university prestige. University prestige is based primarily on selectivity. Accrediting Khan Academy (or Udacity, or whatever) won't change any of this process. Employers don't have an incentive to change their process right n…

But wouldn't the perception of the employers change over time if they discovered that the people with degrees from that online university were actually well educated?

Obviously, if the material and teaching sucked, or if cheating was rampant, that would tarnish the reputation, but the same could be said of virtually any educational institution.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#242

Post by plafl » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #199

twic wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that the way they do things is not the best. It's incredible to watch from outside.

Europeans are utterly unable to create new global enterprises at the rate of America and China, apart from a few odd balls like Spotify. Different places optimize for different things, for better and worse.

Europe is a collection of small countries. It's not coincidence that the economic powerhouse of Europe, Germany, is the most populated country. And since this is going quite off topic here is some wild idea: let's keep just a fraction of the current universities, like say 5 or 10%, force talent in Europe to concentrate in a few places, force mixing across nations. Actually this is already encouraged somehow but let's be more brutal. Just thinking out loud maybe an stupid idea.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#243

Post by sushid » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:29 PM UTC

justinmeiners wrote: post #229

twic wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that the way they do things is not the best. It's incredible to watch from outside.

Europeans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that things they pay a percentage of all income earned, over their entire life, are not free. It's incredible to watch from outside.

CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU and we get none of the benefits.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#244

Post by morei » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:35 PM UTC

justinmeiners wrote: post #229

twic wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that the way they do things is not the best. It's incredible to watch from outside.

Europeans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that things they pay a percentage of all income earned, over their entire life, are not free. It's incredible to watch from outside.

I think they are well able to image that, but it's paid as part of income taxes so the hit when they're not earning isn't as catastrophic.

Also, consider that EU tax collection is comparable (and often lower) than US tax collection, despite not EU not having to separately pay for education and health...

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#245

Post by eggy » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:37 PM UTC

The Student Loan Reform Act of 1993 was under Clinton and sponsored by Democrat Robert E. Andrews of NJ. The gist was to smooth the delivery of funds to the colleges, but per the article it failed since colleges then raised their tuition to get more from the government, and students then started owing larger amounts directly to the government as a lender. This is another example of good intentions that allow for playing the market instead of leaving it alone. That's my read on it, but I would like to hear others opinions on this statement.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#246

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:38 PM UTC

sushid wrote: post #243

justinmeiners wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that things they pay a percentage of all income earned, over their entire life, are not free. It's incredible to watch from outside.

CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU and we get none of the benefits.

> CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU

Nominal rates might be, but tax burden is not. California tax burden is well under 15% GDP, and federal collections in the state are a tiny bit higher than state tax revenues, together still under 30% tax burden. EU overall tax burden is over 40% of GDP.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#247

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:39 PM UTC

pa7x1 wrote: post #195

georgeecollins wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across…

Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Camb…

PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#248

Post by justinmeiners » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

morei wrote: post #244

justinmeiners wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that things they pay a percentage of all income earned, over their entire life, are not free. It's incredible to watch from outside.

I think they are well able to image that, but it's paid as part of income taxes so the hit when they're not earning isn't as catastrophic. Also, consider that EU tax collection is comparable (and often lower) than US tax collection, despite not EU not having to separately pay for education and health...

I don't disagree. I am not making a judgement of which is better overall, just that neither alternative is free, or even close to that.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#249

Post by 121789 » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:45 PM UTC

t0mbstone wrote: post #241

121789 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is all driven by initial post-university employment (and to some extent post-graduate degrees). Employers use university as a screen for jobs, and perceive candidate value based on university prestige. University prestige is based primarily on selectivity. Accrediting Khan Academy (or Udacity, or whatever) won't change any of this process. Employers don't have an incentive to change their process right n…

But wouldn't the perception of the employers change over time if they discovered that the people with degrees from that online university were actually well educated? Obviously, if the material and teaching sucked, or if cheating was rampant, that would tarnish the reputation, but the same could be said of virtually any educational institution.

Of course, if they ever had a reason to change. But they don't, because they don't really have a problem with supply of candidates. They have issues with selecting for quality, but adding tons of candidates with online degrees doesn't help them.

There are potential ways of addressing this, but they mainly involve the online university developing selection criteria just like elite colleges (e.g. everyone can access basic materials, but only certain X performers can access the premium version with company interviews; or they only admit X students per class). Otherwise the value of the degree is diluted and it has no more signaling power to employers. In addition, the online universities will likely attract less capable students, because for very strong students, top tier universities are still very much worth it.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#250

Post by JamesBarney » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #219

JamesBarney wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are over 300 million people, and like Europe we are not homogenous. And many Americans believe European healthcare, education, and infrastructure are far superior to the U.S. The problem is that despite Europe being far more efficient at health, education, and infrastructure spending it also has a wide range of policies. So it's difficult to determine which policies are driving the increase in efficiency an…

There’s no such thing as “European healthcare”. European countries (and I’m going to ignore Brexit and include the UK) approach provision of healthcare in a unique way. For example, the UK has the NHS, Switzerland has insurance mandates, and France has strict regulation of private insurance companies.

Yeah this was my point.