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Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

texasmonthly.com

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Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#431

Post by csommers »

xg15 wrote: post #111

> But it wasn’t strictly an “everything is bigger in Texas” ethos that caused Houston to sprawl the way that it does. Rather, Cold War–era urban design philosophy in the U.S. prioritized sprawl because older cities that had urbanized pre–World War II—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit—were seen as being susceptible to nuclear strikes. Less-dense cities such as Los Angeles and Houston were less likely to be…

I don’t believe it. They had MIRVs even back then. There’s no difference in density between .5 miles and 15 miles. You’re fucked either way with: direct impact, over pressure, and radiation/fallout.

This sounds like some armchair theory.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#432

Post by pfraze »

S_A_P wrote: post #400
jcrawfordor wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a decidedly amateur historian with interest in this area, I think that claim is true on its own but also does not tell the entire story. It is true that decentralization was viewed as a major component of nuclear survivability, particularly in the earlier part of the cold war. This was the time period during which the FEMA (today's name) crisis relocation program was being devised, for example, and the high cost a…

This is a really great response. I think there are a ton of both selfish and altruistic reasons for the urban sprawl that is Houston. I grew up here (Alief area) and that was the burbs when I was young. (It’s about 15-20 minutes drive from downtown) there was a 10 or so mile gap between where I lived and Sugarland. Now it all runs together. I now live due south of Katy in an unincorporated area about 40 miles away fr…

Houston is by far one of the most diverse areas I’ve ever visited in the US, up there with NYC.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#433

Post by dylan604 »

MaximumYComb wrote: post #429
dylan604 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cases, it's worse. Some families that were able to buy properties have had them for so long they only owe taxes each year. Then some developers petition the city that those properties are vital, and they are granted eminent domain. Even if they are paid the amount of the suppressed values of their property, there's no way they can afford to do anything with that money. Plus, they are now forced out of the pro…

Does the US have a lot of eminent domain for development?

Yes. One of the sticking points to 'build that wall' is the land they want to build the wall is owned by private citizens. Oil & Gas, transportation, etc have all used it to get the land.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#434

Post by pfraze »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #405
js2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> crisis relocation (which, in an earlier form, was a major motivation for the Eisenhower freeway system, to the extent that it's probably fair to say that it was the main motivation with materiel movement as a second) I've heard that before, but the DOT claims evacuation was a minor factor. From https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/interstatemyths.cfm#ques... President Eisenhower supported the Interstate System becau…

Yeah, I'm really not sure about this - stories of the strange history of the Eisenhower freeway system are extremely common and there's just a surprising amount of myth around them, like the airplane landing thing that we've seen elsewhere in the thread. It's probably unnecessarily conspiratorial to think that the motivations were anything other than what was officially said (e.g. economic advantages), but I give a c…

It’s really common for decisions to be made for more than one reason, even if some of those reasons are just advantages brought up during the planning discussions. I can easily see the defense motives as being one of the many factors involved in the freeway development.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#435

Post by msla »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #396
msla wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about emergency vehicles or people who get escorts. I'm talking about the doctors who have to make their own way in their own vehicles.

It's okay, the minor negative effects of that are never going to be more important than the ability to protest effectively. Just like nobody blames normal traffic for killing people via doctor delays.

> It's okay, the minor negative effects of that are never going to be more important than the ability to protest effectively.

Are you even theoretically willing to discuss this in good faith?

> Just like nobody blames normal traffic for killing people via doctor delays.

That's because normal traffic jams aren't intentional.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#436

Post by souprock »

Flobin wrote: post #340
binarytox1n wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American in Texas here - maybe this is a behavior encouraged by the very thing we're discussing, but going to the grocery store _every day_ is a big yikes to me. I go once a week and get everything I need for that week. Because I take my car, I can carry that amount of stuff.

When a grocery store is very nearby and you go to the grocery store, you can get your produce fresher. And you don't have to plan your meals, which may or may not be a positive side (it is for me). Check out this Canadian talking about his grocery trip in Amsterdam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk .

You can't get your produce fresher if you are walking, unless the current temperature just happens to be a few degrees above freezing.

In much of the USA, your produce would freeze and thus become mush.

In much of the USA, temperatures well above 90 degrees would wilt your produce. Also, all your frozen food would be ruined.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#437

Post by peterpeppers »

S_A_P wrote: post #400
jcrawfordor wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a decidedly amateur historian with interest in this area, I think that claim is true on its own but also does not tell the entire story. It is true that decentralization was viewed as a major component of nuclear survivability, particularly in the earlier part of the cold war. This was the time period during which the FEMA (today's name) crisis relocation program was being devised, for example, and the high cost a…

This is a really great response. I think there are a ton of both selfish and altruistic reasons for the urban sprawl that is Houston. I grew up here (Alief area) and that was the burbs when I was young. (It’s about 15-20 minutes drive from downtown) there was a 10 or so mile gap between where I lived and Sugarland. Now it all runs together. I now live due south of Katy in an unincorporated area about 40 miles away fr…

The INTERESTING QUESTION is did the Federal Housing Administration prioritize white wealth and lives by moving them into an area less likely to get nuked by the USSR?

Also kudos for not being a racist...

But you might want to take a look at history. The US government actively encouraged urban sprawl with low-cost loans and redlining starting with Roosevelt and the New Deal.

"Beginning in 1934, the Federal Housing Administration (HOLC) included in the FHA Underwriting Handbook “residential security maps” used to help the government decide which neighborhoods would make secure investments and which should be off-limits for issuing mortgages[...] Green areas were were explicitly homogenous, lacking “a single foreigner or Negro.”

SOURCES:

- https://www.thoughtco.com/redlining-definition-4157858

- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-federal-governmen...

- https://www.businessinsider.com/how-redlining-kept-black-ame...

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#438

Post by jcrawfordor »

pfraze wrote: post #434
jcrawfordor wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm really not sure about this - stories of the strange history of the Eisenhower freeway system are extremely common and there's just a surprising amount of myth around them, like the airplane landing thing that we've seen elsewhere in the thread. It's probably unnecessarily conspiratorial to think that the motivations were anything other than what was officially said (e.g. economic advantages), but I give a c…

It’s really common for decisions to be made for more than one reason, even if some of those reasons are just advantages brought up during the planning discussions. I can easily see the defense motives as being one of the many factors involved in the freeway development.

Right, and if my borderline conspiracy theory that evacuation was a bigger factor than we know today is at all true, I'm not saying that the federal DOT is lying to us today or anything. If there was a considerable FEMA influence in the motivation and design of the system, staff today probably just don't know about it. A lot of this stuff happened in face-to-face conversations, a lot of the documentation was classified and by the time it hit the DECL ON it was moldering in a bankers box somewhere... the same reasons that a lot of stuff about the relocation program isn't very well known today despite it being declassified. One of the consequences of secrecy is that the whole thing is more likely to just be forgotten as decades go by and the people who were in the know cycle out. And FEMA and its precursors seemed to have a particularly weird and insular inner culture that makes them hard to talk about from a historical perspective today.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#439

Post by souprock »

ctdonath wrote: post #428
crispyambulance wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assumption that _everyone wants to be stacked on top of each other_ It's also an assumption that everyone wants to begin and end every trip, no matter how trivial, with a parking spot. It's an assumption that people will want to drive in traffic for 20 minutes minimum to get to a supermarket, do anything with their kids, or anything outside their property line. The notion of "stacked on top of each other" has unple…

There's the catch: is everything you could possibly want really a short walk/transit away? or is the proliferation of top-end (for you) options in a sprawling city way beyond what can be crammed within walking distance of _your_ home? Are you satisfied with a few arbitrary restaurants within walking distance? or, car enabled, would you rather go 30 miles for that REALLY good place that would never be so close in a co…

Around here, the fancy restaurant has a boat dock. The people with money have boat docks. You don't walk to the restaurant! The dress code probably doesn't include SCUBA, especially if dripping wet.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#440

Post by jariel »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #396
msla wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about emergency vehicles or people who get escorts. I'm talking about the doctors who have to make their own way in their own vehicles.

It's okay, the minor negative effects of that are never going to be more important than the ability to protest effectively. Just like nobody blames normal traffic for killing people via doctor delays.

"It's okay, the minor negative effects of that are never going to be more important than the ability to protest effectively."

No way. You do not have the right to arbitrarily lock down traffic for some arbitrary reason.

Wait until Trump supporters lock down traffic in LA all day because they legitimately believe the 'election was stolen'.

You can protest in the park or city square or somewhere where it doesn't stop a large number of people from going about their business.

You don't get to suppress others with your ideology.

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