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After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

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Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#471
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a claim that molten salt reactors are meltdown free. It's not entirely true (they meltdown, but have a drainage tank which is supposed to provide containment). They remain experimental. https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Molten_salt_reactor#...

The use of the term "meltdown" seems disingenuous when discussing a molten reactor. If most of the fuel is already molten, and the shutdown procedure is to cut power (matching a power loss scenario) which means a plug melts to allow the fuel to flow into a safe storage container, then the thing is meant to "meltdown" fairly often. "Core damage incident" instead of "meltdown"?

I think passive safety is really where the good designs are, but what most people are worried about is a core that can't have any kind of criticality incident.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#472
post #378
post #4

For the uninitiated, nuclear power is actually much, much safer than it was in the previous century, and fossil fuel power plants have killed exponentially more people through pollution than all nuclear power accidents combined – it's just not something that happens all at once so it doesn't seem like a big deal to most people. We will not be able to "defeat" climate change and keep this planet inhabitable for future…

> Nuclear energy is by far the safest energy source in this comparison – it results in more than 442 times fewer deaths than the 'dirtiest' forms of coal; 330 times fewer than coal; 250 times less than oil; and 38 times fewer than gas. If I look at the graph to the right and do the division, the numbers don't come out the same as what is quoted. This may have to do with the abominable "x times fewer than y" that make…

That's because we don't see more than 2 decimals in the graph. The nuclear column is probably closer to 0.074.

32.72 / 0.074 ~= 442

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Big disasters are unpredictable and hard to understand. One of those could end the world at any time. In the context of nuclear reactors, Fukushima and Chernobyl are pretty much the worst case scenario. A large nuclear disaster is very disruptive to the immediate area but it would not "end the world" in any sense.

It's weird to see these two accidents grouped like that, given how they differed in severity.

Those are the only two Level 7 nuclear events (the highest severity) to occur in history so I think it makes sense to group them together.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the people in all the nuclear accidents (or usage) ever that have died is There is no consensus about it. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl:_Consequences_of_the...

This is more like saying that there's no consensus about climate change. Sure, there are people that disagree, but it is small. And to quote the wiki you posted (from the opening) > The book was not peer reviewed by the New York Academy of Sciences.Five reviews were published in the academic press, with four of them considering the book severely flawed and contradictory, and one praising it while noting some shortcom…

There is no consensus because the authors of the negative reviews are the authors of works heavily criticized in the book.

What you consider as a consensus forms, in fact, a debate.

This is not "some researchers publish, are criticized by the book, then the scientific community condemns the book, forming a consensus".

Nope.

It is in fact "some researchers publish, are criticized by the book, then the criticized researchers try to debunk the book, then the authors of the book answer to them".

One of the critics is Monty Charles. His own work, done for the UNSCEAR (a pro-nuke UN agency) in 2006, is heavily criticized in the book. He then criticized this book.

Proof: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245759797_United_Na...

Another critic was published by Mona Dreicer, who worked for the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) (another UN pro-nuke agency) and the book criticized her work.

Proof: https://www.iaea.org/bulletin/38-3

Another one is M. Balonov, long-time contributor of reports published by UN-agencies, and the book criticizes his work.

Proof: https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr38/en/

S. Jargin, another author of a negative review, sees flaws in each and every publication criticizing a powerful industry. For example asbestos is in his opinion not a concern and its use unduly prohibited.

Proof: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321527973_Asbestos_...

Here is another sample of his research (is it necessary to further comment?) : https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sergei_Jargin/publicati...

His 'debate' with Rosamund Katz and Janette Sherman is surrealistic. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278732482_Who_Is_Af...

The book authors' credentials seems pretty clear to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl:_Consequences_of_the...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#475
post #125
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can live on that land unlike on radioactive wasteland.

Ironically enough, you can only live on it if the dam fails. Otherwise you're consigning up to thousands of square kilometers of often prime real estate underwater indefinitely.

I think the reference was to the downstream land flooded by a dam failure.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#476
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 200 years / 5 gives about 40 years useful life. Well, no, it's not that simple. Some advances would require new reactors, such as breeders, but even in a closed system with breeders there would be maybe a 2:1 ratio of traditional burner reactors to breeders (producing fuel for the burners). So even in such a scenario existing LWR's wouldn't be a stranded investment. But even if we forget breeding for a moment, an i…

Main point is that "200 year supply" is not all that impressive. Demand growth can dominate that rapidly. When coal was first becoming a mainstream fuel in the US, reserves were estimated as sufficient for 1 million years. Current estimates are for about 100-250 years (latter from BP's Annual Statistical Review for 2019). Demand increased somewhat, and consequences emerged. Now 150 years into the million we're phasin…

> Main point is that "200 year supply" is not all that impressive. Demand growth can dominate that rapidly.

Sure. But if we keep exponentially increasing energy usage, at some point we'll boil the oceans. And long before that we would have wrecked the earths ecosystem. So I'm assuming that the exponential increase in energy usage will stop at some point.

The 120000 year figure I arrived at in my previous post included a factor of 100 increase over current usage. Even if we add another factor of 100 increase (a total of a factor of 10000 increase over current usage!), we'd still have fuel for 1200 years, surely more than enough to get fusion working.

> When coal was first becoming a mainstream fuel in the US, reserves were estimated as sufficient for 1 million years. Current estimates are for about 100-250 years (latter from BP's Annual Statistical Review for 2019). Demand increased somewhat, and consequences emerged. Now 150 years into the million we're phasing out coal as quickly as possible.

Sure, but ~200 years ago our understanding of geology was quite rudimentary compared to today. And yes, starting from more or less zero we did exponentially increase usage for a couple of centuries. I don't think it's realistic to continue at the same exponential rate for several centuries more, regardless of where the energy comes from (maybe in the far future if humanity starts to look at interstellar travel we would have a usage for such truly stupendous amounts of energy).

Furthermore, we're not phasing out coal because we're running out of it, but due to climate/pollution/economics. From a climate perspective, it unfortunately seems we have more than enough coal left to wreck the climate if we would burn all of it.

> Breeders, thorium (a breeder fuel), and uranium seawater extraction are possible but have proved challenging or limited to date.

The main reason is economics. Uranium is currently just so cheap that it doesn't make economic sense to deploy breeder reactors and reprocessing yet. And without volume deployment, they remain expensive and underdeveloped compared to the current once-through cycle. However, there is no question whether the technology works. It does.

Earlier in the nuclear age (say 1950-1970 or so), uranium was believed to be scarce, isotope enrichment by gas diffusion was very expensive and energy consuming, and we believed the world would soon be powered by atomic energy. So a lot of effort was made to develop breeder reactor and reprocessing technology. However, all of this turned out to be incorrect. Uranium turned out to be quite plentiful, centrifuges made enrichment a lot cheaper, and nuclear power expansion ground to a standstill.

But the earlier R&D showed that the technology is viable, so if uranium prices would start to drastically increase, the option to deploy breeders at scale still exists.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#477
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a stretch. The Exclusion Zone[1] is about 2600km^2 (1000 sq mi) but it's only declared uninhabitable, there are people living there (though not saying it's a wise move to settle down there). There are some areas outside that which is also deemed dangerous, but that's the order of magnitude we're talking about. For reference, Europe covers an area of about 10 million km^2 (almost 4 million sq mi). Also note tha…

No, I am not talking about what happened. I am talking about what almost happened. They tunneled under the meltdown to stop it from destroying a huge amount of Europe, and I believe everyone involved in the tunneling died.

Sorry, brain seemed to filter away the crucial "almost".

However it goes back to how "intermediate" levels of radiation affects us. Even if the water had caused the remaining cores to blow up as well[1] then it's still not clear just what the impact would be[2].

[1]: https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/485190

[2]: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190725-will-we-ever-kno...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#478
post #202
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just look at Japan, most of the region around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has actually been reopened to the public already: > https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/20/national/beach-... > https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/05/national/evacue... Looking at the radiation levels, most places are already back to save levels: > https://www.pref.fukushima.lg.jp/site/portal-english/en02-01... You ha…

> Even Chernobyl is mostly safe these days unless you stay at the hotspots for too long. You could say the exact same thing about a house fire.

You could also say that about Bondi Beach. Stay out in the hot zone too long and you will get radiation burns from the unshielded nuclear reactor hanging over your head.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Democrats are for it, then they are against it.

The Republican Party has been pro nuclear for years...

Yeah, and they were anti-Russia, for small government and personal responsibility. The GOP isn't what it used to be. I have no idea where they stand on anything and even if I did, I wouldn't bet that it's the same tomorrow.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#480
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of the term "meltdown" seems disingenuous when discussing a molten reactor. If most of the fuel is already molten, and the shutdown procedure is to cut power (matching a power loss scenario) which means a plug melts to allow the fuel to flow into a safe storage container, then the thing is meant to "meltdown" fairly often. "Core damage incident" instead of "meltdown"?

I think passive safety is really where the good designs are, but what most people are worried about is a core that can't have any kind of criticality incident.

Oh yeah, totally. I'm just objecting to using the term "meltdown" to describe the typical power-down procedure because of the negative connotations of the term.

I'm good with "criticality incident", "core damage incident", or any other descriptive term that makes it clear that it's a deviation from normal behavior. Using a negative term for a non-critical incident is just stacking the deck against the technology.

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