Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy • Hacker News Board

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#341

Post by wongarsu » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

fireattack wrote: post #157

wongarsu wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, I don't like living in the same house as 5 other families, whose sleep schedule doesn't necessarily align with mine. The acoustic isolation is probably a lot better than in typical US houses, but not perfect either. However I do like living 3 minutes from the next supermarket, and 20 minutes from the city center with all the shop, and 25 minutes from my work (all distances by foot). I would love to hav…

>25 minutes from my work This is definitely ideal, but is it achievable (in average , not for any individual) in larger cities even if they are built for walk/public transit? I don't have much experience in Europe, but I knew in Tokyo, which probably has the best public transit in the world, the average commute time is one hour. This is obviously an extreme example as Tokyo is a megacity, but I think majority of peop…

> I think majority of people cannot live 25 minutes from their work for any cities that have 1M+ populations

I generally agree, though in cities like Paris you can get close. But 1M+ is very big by European standards. There are only 34 cities on the entire continent that fit that description [1], and there are multiple capitals [2] half that size (Dublin and Lisbon each have around half a million inhabitants).

Once you get down to ~300k or fewer citizens commute times drop a lot. That's really how the vast majority of the population lives.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_cities_by_pop...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European...

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#342

Post by gpderetta » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

adrianmonk wrote: post #252

One factor that hasn't been mentioned here is climate. Siena seems to have a very mild climate. Its average high temperature[1] in August is 28.3°C (82.9°F). Compare that to Houston's monthly high for August, which is 35°C (95°F). Houston is also very humid[3]. Most people don't want to take a 10-minute walk when it's 95°F and humid. You arrive at your destination panting and very sweaty. It's more comfortable to tak…

I don't think temperature has anything yo do with it. There are still plenty of cities in southern Italy were temperature goes above 40° in the summer and still do not sprawl.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#343

Post by an_opabinia » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

jcrawfordor wrote: post #322

xg15 wrote: post #111

> But it wasn’t strictly an “everything is bigger in Texas” ethos that caused Houston to sprawl the way that it does. Rather, Cold War–era urban design philosophy in the U.S. prioritized sprawl because older cities that had urbanized pre–World War II—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit—were seen as being susceptible to nuclear strikes. Less-dense cities such as Los Angeles and Houston were less likely to be…

As a decidedly amateur historian with interest in this area, I think that claim is true on its own but also does not tell the entire story. It is true that decentralization was viewed as a major component of nuclear survivability, particularly in the earlier part of the cold war. This was the time period during which the FEMA (today's name) crisis relocation program was being devised, for example, and the high cost a…

Well, nowadays, designing a city around defense would seem ridiculous.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#344

Post by Flobin » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #271

jfengel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really strikes me is just how many ordinary buildings are older than our country. The monuments and palaces are one thing, but it's very common to eat in a restaurant or pub that dates to the 17th century. Not as a tourist trap or destination, but just as a perfectly ordinary building that has been retrofitted (sometimes awkwardly) with bathrooms and lights and such. I've been in 500 year old cottages that weren…

One thing I wonder is, how frequently are new European buildings made of stone? I occasionally encounter comments from people confused by American home renovation shows where people literally burst through walls Kool-Aid Man style[1] when demolishing them, but most of our walls (even exterior) are wood-framed and mostly hollow, and once you take out the framing there’s just drywall. [1] Not from an actual renovation…

Depends on where in Europe. There is a lot of wood construction in Scandinavia and the Baltic countries. The Netherlands, for instance, uses a lot of brick (for facades, and sand-lime bricks on the inside). Places near the Mediterranean, often use thick stone walls and/or concrete.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#345

Post by gpderetta » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #146

heymijo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No discussion of sprawl is complete without talking about Robert Moses. American highways, and highways around the world sprawl as they do because of Robert Moses. Throughout Robert Cairo's 1344 page biography of Moses, the reader sees how Moses' racism and clasism impacted the massive influence he had on transportation and sprawl in America. +1 for Stamped. In addition, Redlining is a well researched and documented…

Vilifying Moses is a great way to earn some virtue points and pat yourself on the back for being enlightened but the fact of the matter is that he gave the people what they wanted. While the implementations have changed a great many of the underlying desires that motivated his ideas as still alive and well today. Laying the blame all on one person or a few people is an easy out. Designing things to keep out people of…

> the fact of the matter is that he gave the people what they wanted.

I know nothing about Moses, but if the accusations are true, the above would not absolve it in any way.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#346

Post by trhway » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #343

jcrawfordor wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a decidedly amateur historian with interest in this area, I think that claim is true on its own but also does not tell the entire story. It is true that decentralization was viewed as a major component of nuclear survivability, particularly in the earlier part of the cold war. This was the time period during which the FEMA (today's name) crisis relocation program was being devised, for example, and the high cost a…

Well, nowadays, designing a city around defense would seem ridiculous.

different times, different threat models. I think we may as well see a city design emerging which would be taking into account aerial viral spread, remote work/study, etc. which would affect density, transportation, etc. Deepening stratification of society will naturally generate even higher social tension gradients which may present a potential threat to social stability, and thus it may require even more intentional measures in the future city designs to support social stability in the face of such gradients. I think we can see city designs addressing such emerging trends as autonomous delivery/transportation (which naturally plays well with the stratification), policing and public safety in general - i.e. more conductive to total surveillance, robot based policing (how about that one at Shoreline Cinema 16 or even those Starships crawling on Castro - today delivering pizza it'd politely wait for you to let him pass, yet i'm sure that while waiting it dreams about tomorrow when painted with police insignia it'd be forcing its way though the crowd by throwing tear gas and delivering taser jolts :) and making it easier for containment of protest and terrorist activity.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#347

Post by kmlx » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

abraxas wrote: post #177

maxsilver wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you feel "stacked on top of each other" in a Parisian townhouse with a magnificent shared courtyard, 12 foot ceilings, and everything you could possibly want a short walk or subway ride away? No, I wouldn't feel "stacked on top of each other" if I were a multi-millionaire in Paris. But, in the real world, your talking about putting families into 600sqft (at very best) boxes, with audible neighbors on every si…

Nonsense. There are very walkable and affordable cities with pleasant neighborhoods that don't break the bank in all parts of the world (sans North America). Off the top of my head and from first hand experience: - Warsaw - Glasgow - Porto - Lisbon - Athens (Greece) - Berlin - Budapest - Barcelona (OK, this one gets pricey but is superbly laid out)

two issues with that list: most of those cities are poor, or at least not as affluent as others. and except glasgow, none accept english speakers.

and since we're doing lists, these are the most expensive cities i lived in (coincidentally some of them are the best cities in the world to live in, bar none):

- sydney

- tokyo

- singapore

- hong kong

- london

all top notch, all extremely expensive.

moral of the story is: you get what you pay for.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#348

Post by philwelch » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

Flobin wrote: post #344

philwelch wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I wonder is, how frequently are new European buildings made of stone? I occasionally encounter comments from people confused by American home renovation shows where people literally burst through walls Kool-Aid Man style[1] when demolishing them, but most of our walls (even exterior) are wood-framed and mostly hollow, and once you take out the framing there’s just drywall. [1] Not from an actual renovation…

Depends on where in Europe. There is a lot of wood construction in Scandinavia and the Baltic countries. The Netherlands, for instance, uses a lot of brick (for facades, and sand-lime bricks on the inside). Places near the Mediterranean, often use thick stone walls and/or concrete.

That sounds a lot like people just use whatever materials are locally convenient. Which also explains the popularity of wood framing in the US.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#349

Post by xenocyon » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #262

xenocyon wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger elephant in all of our rooms is climate change. Density is by far more climate-sustainable (as well as more environmentally sustainable in other ways) than sprawl. In addition, global economic forces are creating a mass move to cities around the world anyway. So no matter what we think we want right now, we will at some point in the present or future be forced to reckon with density either pleasant…

"Density is by far more climate-sustainable (as well as more environmentally sustainable in other ways) than sprawl." Care to back that up?

It is quite a well-established and uncontroversial fact; here is one article of many that discuss this: https://phys.org/news/2014-01-carbon-footprint-reveal-urban-...

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#350

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

gpderetta wrote: post #345

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vilifying Moses is a great way to earn some virtue points and pat yourself on the back for being enlightened but the fact of the matter is that he gave the people what they wanted. While the implementations have changed a great many of the underlying desires that motivated his ideas as still alive and well today. Laying the blame all on one person or a few people is an easy out. Designing things to keep out people of…

> the fact of the matter is that he gave the people what they wanted. I know nothing about Moses, but if the accusations are true, the above would not absolve it in any way.

It doesn't matter if it's "absolved"

A man like that doesn't work alone. You need massive public support to build a portfolio like he had. People blame him personally because that's easier than looking in the mirror.