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Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

texasmonthly.com

321–330 of 570 posts

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#321
post #319

As someone who lives in Houston, the simple reason there is sprawl is because its flat and land is cheap. This makes it easy to live on large lots or on small average. It's also hot, so people spend more time indoors and drive everywhere.

Don't forget lack of zoning and state commitment to building highway/freeway infrastructure.

It's partially a collective action problem. Since everyone has pretty much committed to doing nearly everything via car the marginal cost at either the individual or system level of adding one more car (side) trip is very low.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#322
post #111

> But it wasn’t strictly an “everything is bigger in Texas” ethos that caused Houston to sprawl the way that it does. Rather, Cold War–era urban design philosophy in the U.S. prioritized sprawl because older cities that had urbanized pre–World War II—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit—were seen as being susceptible to nuclear strikes. Less-dense cities such as Los Angeles and Houston were less likely to be…

As a decidedly amateur historian with interest in this area, I think that claim is true on its own but also does not tell the entire story.

It is true that decentralization was viewed as a major component of nuclear survivability, particularly in the earlier part of the cold war. This was the time period during which the FEMA (today's name) crisis relocation program was being devised, for example, and the high cost and complexity of crisis relocation (which, in an earlier form, was a major motivation for the Eisenhower freeway system, to the extent that it's probably fair to say that it was the main motivation with materiel movement as a second) served to highlight the inherent vulnerability of dense cities and keep it very much in the minds of government planners. Decentralized cities had an inherent advantage to planners in that money could be saved on crisis relocation efforts. Of course the crisis relocation program was never fully implemented, but the way of thinking was fairly influential.

The federal government had an enormous role in suburbanization of US cities in many, many ways, which is actually part of what makes it hard to address this point. Support for suburbanization was not coming just (or even primarily) from FEMA, all kinds of federal agencies had a hand. Much of the urban renewal work of the 20th century took the effective form of relocating poor people to the suburbs and replacing their inner-city housing with industrial/commercial/transport, for example the Model Cities program of the late '60s. This was in part a result of the general feeling that the inner city was where poor people lived and so improving their economic situation required getting them out of it, part of it was merely the practical issue that substantially improving a dense area is a lot more expensive than razing it and build something new there. I don't know if these programs were strongly influenced by crisis planning, they probably were at least in part, but it seems unlikely that crisis planning was a much bigger influence in federal advocacy of suburbanization than the more organic trends of white flight and urban decay that came out of a set of race and class relations, in a potent combination with some simple budget and timeline considerations.

My point is that nuclear planning was a factor, but the massive suburbanization of the postwar decades originated from many factors out of which nuclear crisis planning was only one, and I'm not convinced that it was one of the bigger ones in the end. Yes, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists very openly advocated for suburbanization of cities and that view was influential, but at the same time so much of suburbanization was motivated by a new vision of the American dream that came out of the peculiarities of post-war economics and demographics, racism, the radical popularity of the automobile (which not only enabled low-density areas but often required the destruction of high-density areas to provide freeway access to business districts), and probably at least a few other things.

Any claim that "urban sprawl is a result of x" where X isn't a list of things is probably pretty hard to defend. A complete change in not just urban planning but people's patterns of life tends to require a confluence of factors.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#323
post #111

> But it wasn’t strictly an “everything is bigger in Texas” ethos that caused Houston to sprawl the way that it does. Rather, Cold War–era urban design philosophy in the U.S. prioritized sprawl because older cities that had urbanized pre–World War II—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit—were seen as being susceptible to nuclear strikes. Less-dense cities such as Los Angeles and Houston were less likely to be…

It wouldn't have. In case of an all out war each side would send dozens if not hundreds of rockets at each target. US in particular had the problem where each arm of the military(airforce, army, navy and missile command) had their own and completely independent launch plans. So each one would launch their own compliment of nukes at Russian cities. Destruction of your own missiles by the already exploding weapons was…

In the beginning stages of the Cold War and the start of urban sprawl the threat wasn't rockets but bombers. ICBMs weren't created till '57 and took over the strategic setup for killing everyone in the years after that, so there's a window there for sprawl to be a legit(ish) survival/mitigation strategy.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#324
post #32

>Siena’s history dates back millennia. Houston, meanwhile, was founded in 1836. Every time I am made aware of just how young the US is, it blows me away. I've never been to Europe, I would really love to go some day, but I can only imagine the feeling of actually seeing these really old places/structures in person.

What really strikes me is just how many ordinary buildings are older than our country. The monuments and palaces are one thing, but it's very common to eat in a restaurant or pub that dates to the 17th century. Not as a tourist trap or destination, but just as a perfectly ordinary building that has been retrofitted (sometimes awkwardly) with bathrooms and lights and such. I've been in 500 year old cottages that weren…

Like the 1,100 year-old Sean's Bar which is often given as a good example of old buildings.

https://www.seansbar.ie/home

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#325
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say those are very expensive for the local salaries.

In those countries it _really_ depends what your job is. If you're a teacher or a bus driver then yes rent is too damn high. If on the other hand, you have a corporate job at a branch of a western company it's extremely cheap. Software developers in Warsaw easily make 10-20K PLN per month thus having rent costs less than a quarter of their paycheck.

Still wouldn't call that cheap percentage wise. Software developer in Montreal pays about 25-30% of the salary for 100m2 as well.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#327
post #319

As someone who lives in Houston, the simple reason there is sprawl is because its flat and land is cheap. This makes it easy to live on large lots or on small average. It's also hot, so people spend more time indoors and drive everywhere.

I'm glad someone said this. The size of the interchange vs a small town in Italy is an odd comparison. Land and gas are cheap in one place and they're not in another. That's basically the end of the story.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cities in the US that are older than the US, by a large margin. Come to New Mexico and you'll see. Obligatory edit: After COVID, please.

I actually took a trip to New Mexico when I was younger, the parts that we visited were awesome. All the people were amazingly friendly. I grew up in the Northeast so it was a pretty big culture shock. I believe it was in Albuquerque. We visited the Nuclear Museum and a couple little local shops and even a local reptile zoo. I would love to go back for the hot air balloon festival someday.

Agreed. Did a road trip to New Mexico (in the winter!) and it was well worth the trip. Went to Santa Fe, Taos, Los Alamos, Pecos and some of the pueblo sites (which are incredible and you get amazing access to them). Super interesting place! I'm surprised it's not more of a tourist destination.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in all fairness, s/he did say: > I prefer to have a car. > I like being able to use a telescope and not hear cars. So I am not sure s/he cares much about the commons. :D

I mean, like I also have bees and livestock. Not sure why my parent comment here is getting downvoted like crazy. But yeah some people just don't like the cosmopolitanism. Then again I enjoy Walden and nature. This is getting a bit meta and off topic. It does seem like any mention of cars on HN will get a slew of automobile haters and lovers in a flamewar. Not my goal here. Just saying different strokes, the common g…

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Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused as to whether you're describing urban living or suburban living. Both have everything mentioned, the latter without being stacked on top of your neighbors.

In no way do the suburbs have the quality and diversity of food that any urban core does. 0%. I've been in both, they simple do not compare.

True, but that's mostly about the class of the people in those areas. Working class neighborhoods in dense urban areas aren't filled with a variety of great restaurants.

If you took everyone in the suburbs and built them dense city neighborhoods they wouldn't suddenly have great places to eat.

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