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Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

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Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#101

Post by andybak »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #85
macintux wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death is not the only metric that matters.

Are you trying to ambiguously perpetuate the myth that Covid-19 is likely to cause strange and unknown medical issues even in people that it only causes a minor acute illness in? If you're not trying to spread that falsehood, could you clarify what you mean?

What makes you think it's a myth? Myth is an extremely strong word that implies this is something that has been thoroughly debunked.

I would expect that would leave a trail in literature if it were the case.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#102

Post by ghthor »

emteycz wrote: post #17
hedgew wrote: post #15

Every day vaccines are delayed costs thousands of lives. Bioethicists who have forbidden challenge trials in vaccine trials have firmly taken the no-action stance in the trolley problem. A normal phase 3 trial gives the vaccine to volunteers and waits for them to get sick (or not). A challenge trial is the same, but infects the volunteers intentionally, which significantly speeds up the trial and reduces the sample s…

The bioethicists argue that perhaps having people stay at home and wear a mask when going outside is absolutely required would be better than untested vaccines. Can you imagine what happens if the antivax crowd gains actual arguments? I don't want to.

The antivax group DOES have actual arguments. If you have kids and they have complications from the vaccines maybe you'll do the research needed to help them through their suffering like my wife and I had to do when our 5 year old started screaming, pissing herself and rocking uncontrollably.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#103

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

aphextron wrote: post #80
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ignoring this fact and doing things without political discussion is what we call authoritarianism. This is a broad statement and makes me think of how readily people talk about "fascism" and "neo-nazis" nowadays with little regard to whether the people they're describing bear any relation to Mussolini or Hitler.

>This is a broad statement and makes me think of how readily people talk about "fascism" and "neo-nazis" nowadays with little regard to whether the people they're describing bear any relation to Mussolini or Hitler. Those were totalitarian states. Authoritarian is general term which can be used to describe any entity engaging in autocratic decision making.

At least in America, you don't have to be engaged in "political discussion" once you're elected. Or even before for that matter.

You're responsible to the Constitution. Once you violate that you're arguably authoritarian. Blind submission to power without regard for protections against it...that's authoritarianism.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#104

Post by actsasbuffoon »

aphextron wrote: post #32

I'm signing up for the Pfizer phase 3 trial today. I have every confidence in the world that the researchers involved know what they are doing and would never push something like this if it weren't safe. If I don't get the placebo (fingers crossed), I will be one of the first people in the world with an immunity against SARS-CoV-2. That's worth a slight risk in my opinion. I honestly don't think they can do this fast…

> I will be one of the first people in the world with an immunity

You might become one of the first. Not all people gain immunity from vaccines. That's one of the things that the phase 3 trial is designed to measure.

Good luck, though. We really need a working vaccine, pronto. Thank you for participating.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#105

Post by emteycz »

ghthor wrote: post #102
emteycz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bioethicists argue that perhaps having people stay at home and wear a mask when going outside is absolutely required would be better than untested vaccines. Can you imagine what happens if the antivax crowd gains actual arguments? I don't want to.

The antivax group DOES have actual arguments. If you have kids and they have complications from the vaccines maybe you'll do the research needed to help them through their suffering like my wife and I had to do when our 5 year old started screaming, pissing herself and rocking uncontrollably.

I am from a country that deems many of vaccines that are used in the US unsafe. That might make a difference.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#106

Post by jtbayly »

hoseja wrote: post #50
jtbayly wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be one reason they are uncomfortable with mandatory vaccination orders, but there's also the fact that the government is putting a gun to your head and saying, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Now I'm going to stick this needle in you. Don't resist and nobody will get hurt."

It's called monopoly on violence and there are worse examples, but perhaps it doesn't even occur to you to imagine them.

Why do you assume I'm unaware of what I'm saying? I'm well aware of what it's called, and also other examples. I don't see how the fact that there are worse examples makes it irrelevant in this case.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#107

Post by emerged »

cblconfederate wrote: post #20
swiley wrote: post #2

This is why people are uncomfortable with mandatory vaccination orders. I’m pro vaccine and in general well tested vaccines are very important for eradicating some pretty awful diseases. I have all of mine and I’m thankful my parents were sane and paid attention to science. Safe modern medicine involves care and testing, that’s the whole point of organizations like the FDA. If we just carelessly push stuff like this…

is it going to be mandatory?

There's basically no chance a mandatory vaccine will happen in the US at least. If it somehow made it through the legal/political side of things, it wouldn't make it through the people side of things. Especially if it's being rushed, or could be perceived that way.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#108

Post by throwaway815190 »

dekhn wrote: post #99
throwaway815190 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing at all. I'm speaking the truth. What are you doing? "Accuse your opponent of what you are doing, to create confusion and to inculcate voters against evidence of your own guilt" Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals

I'm really struggling to see where you're coming from here. You made a claim about what the CDC "admitted" (which is technically correct in the sense that they said it, but it wasn't some sort of "admission"), but misinterpreted it. I called you out on that, and you accused me of accusing you of being a white supremacist. Obviously I did nothing of the sort. I'm just curious why you're pushing the narrative you are.

You're a liar. I didn't misrepresent anything nor did I say you accused me of being a white supremacist.

> I'm just curious why you're pushing the narrative you are.

No, you're not. I'm not pushing a narrative. I'm saying the simple truth. I don't care if you like that truth or not.

The only reason I'm still commenting is to make it clear to you that I won't be silent or stop speaking the truth just because you lie and try to malign me.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#109

Post by Seb-C »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #10

No healthy child or adult (excluding the very old) should take this vaccine unless it's 500% safe because children and adults are NOT at risk for COVID. Really it's only the old people that should be given any kind of a COVID vaccine.

I know it is a voluntary exaggeration but well, if I saw a report seriously stating a 500% safety for a vaccine, I probably wouldn't take it.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#110

Post by WalterGR »

henrikschroder wrote: post #87
mantap wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the risks are quite low for the vast majority of people, then how come COVID-19 can be seen "from space" i.e. as excess deaths in death statistics.

There is excess death due to influenza every year. The number of dead due to covid-19 is not some kind of crazy anomaly that's going to stick out in the statistics. In no-good zombie-apocalypse Sweden, the total deaths/capita for 2020 is probably going to be above the 5-year average, but below the 10-year average and below the death rate of 2012. Here's how the excess mortality of 2020 compares to the last 40 years o…

There is excess death due to influenza every year.

Right. And the flu deaths will be on top of the COVID deaths.

The number of dead due to covid-19 is not some kind of crazy anomaly that's going to stick out in the statistics.

Yes it is.

I don't know who @FrankfurtZack is beyond how he describes himself: "armchair virologist. hobbyvirologe, hobbystaatsepidemiologe". He has one post on Medium and that's it.

Here are some information sources that are more trustworthy.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/12/us/covid-deat...

https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/03/measuring-excess-mortali... (Boston Globe)

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking...

The CDC link in particular is good because the first graph you come across when you scroll down shows deaths going back to 2017, so you can compare COVID excess deaths with H1N1 excess deaths.

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