Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy • Hacker News Board

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#141

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #111

> But it wasn’t strictly an “everything is bigger in Texas” ethos that caused Houston to sprawl the way that it does. Rather, Cold War–era urban design philosophy in the U.S. prioritized sprawl because older cities that had urbanized pre–World War II—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit—were seen as being susceptible to nuclear strikes. Less-dense cities such as Los Angeles and Houston were less likely to be…

This sounds fairly dubious. There was a period between sub-megatonne pure fission warheads being standard and multi-megatonne 'hydrogen' ones, but it was under a decade. That seems like a very narrow window to change how cities were planned.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#142

Post by _8j50 » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #111

> But it wasn’t strictly an “everything is bigger in Texas” ethos that caused Houston to sprawl the way that it does. Rather, Cold War–era urban design philosophy in the U.S. prioritized sprawl because older cities that had urbanized pre–World War II—New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit—were seen as being susceptible to nuclear strikes. Less-dense cities such as Los Angeles and Houston were less likely to be…

That would be a lot of ICBMs. The city center is not residential. Most people that work in the city center for city's like houston or LA commute from one of many different cities. Just to wipe out half of houston you would need to simultaneously strike at least a dozen different locations. The idea was, if there is a missile on the way or if other cities are being attacked, the sprawl would allow evacuating a lot of people.

I do think it is an effective strategy. Look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, tokyo and kyoto were spared for different reasons but they were spared. No sense in wiping out every single city. For the US, a nuclear attack would probably be against symbolic populated cities like new york, san francisco or chicago, ideally the US would surrender after that point and if there is no surrender, military targets would make more sense (hawaii,san diego,san antonio,anapolis,etc...).

The idea is, if you have a small number of targets to defend you can defend them better. Just like with infosec, you want to reduce attack surface so you minimize exposed services or inputs.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#143

Post by sudosysgen » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #63

jfengel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really strikes me is just how many ordinary buildings are older than our country. The monuments and palaces are one thing, but it's very common to eat in a restaurant or pub that dates to the 17th century. Not as a tourist trap or destination, but just as a perfectly ordinary building that has been retrofitted (sometimes awkwardly) with bathrooms and lights and such. I've been in 500 year old cottages that weren…

Anecdotes like this abound in the UK. The oldest part of the closest church to my childhood home was built in the “early 13th century”, according to its website. The cottages next to it (now a pub) seem to date to about the same time as the first British colonies in America. Then there’s Cambridge university, which celebrated 800 years since its foundation in 2009: https://www.cam.ac.uk/about-the-university/history/8…

Same when I lived in Morocco. In Fès, there is a university that is 1161 years old, which is simply staggering.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#144

Post by graeme » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #7

The elephant in the room is the assumption that _everyone wants to be stacked on top of each other_. I do agree that designing cities around cars has ruined a lot of nice places though.

You can still buy seclusion and low density in Europe! But in the USA it’s your only option in new cities.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#145

Post by _8j50 » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

tuna-piano wrote: post #55

It's interesting that protests generally happen in dense parts of cities. Now imagine a city without a dense part - protesting becomes more difficult. Myanmar's non-democratic military government actually moved their capital from a dense city to a new city so spread out and with no downtown area - potentially to prevent the ability to protest the government. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/inside-burma-s-ghost-t…

People can drive to the location of the protest. Less dense means more transportation, protests could also mean blocking off major freeways.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#146

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

heymijo wrote: post #78

swasheck wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve also read that it was the byproduct of post war migration of whites who wanted access to the city but were afraid of the concentration of black people who resided in the city interior. (Stamped from the Beginning by Ibrim X Kendi)

No discussion of sprawl is complete without talking about Robert Moses. American highways, and highways around the world sprawl as they do because of Robert Moses. Throughout Robert Cairo's 1344 page biography of Moses, the reader sees how Moses' racism and clasism impacted the massive influence he had on transportation and sprawl in America. +1 for Stamped. In addition, Redlining is a well researched and documented…

Vilifying Moses is a great way to earn some virtue points and pat yourself on the back for being enlightened but the fact of the matter is that he gave the people what they wanted. While the implementations have changed a great many of the underlying desires that motivated his ideas as still alive and well today. Laying the blame all on one person or a few people is an easy out. Designing things to keep out people of certain classes is still alive and well today and we should remain vigilant.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#147

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

jupp0r wrote: post #23

So a city of 30k people requires less infrastructure than a city of 6M people? Where are the examples of major metropolitan areas without big freeway intersections?

> Where are the examples of major metropolitan areas without big freeway intersections?

Many European cities keep them largely outside (in a ring).

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#148

Post by crmrc114 » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #86

crmrc114 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point being made here is that manufacturing and distribution require roads. People can live in sardine cans however manufacturing / industrial sectors cannot. Zooming in on a engineering marvel for traffic handling and comparing it to high density mixed use housing is a tad non sequitur. Albeit an interesting photo and thought exercise.

The manufacturing and industrial sectors existed before automobiles, as did cities.

Right, next to waterways and railroads.

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#149

Post by xenocyon » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #7

The elephant in the room is the assumption that _everyone wants to be stacked on top of each other_. I do agree that designing cities around cars has ruined a lot of nice places though.

I think the bigger elephant in all of our rooms is climate change. Density is by far more climate-sustainable (as well as more environmentally sustainable in other ways) than sprawl. In addition, global economic forces are creating a mass move to cities around the world anyway. So no matter what we think we want right now, we will at some point in the present or future be forced to reckon with density either pleasantly or unpleasantly.

Now with that said, there are many intelligent ways to design density so that it is not unpleasant. Paying attention to green space and the natural world, space and light in general, and careful design for both function and form can make urban density a thing that is not only sustainable but emotionally/esthetically appealing. (Unfortunately this is not necessarily how density develops in cities, current incentives often instead favoring development that prioritizes flash, affluence appeal, and short-term private economic gain.)

Re: Interchange in Houston is the same size as an entire city center in Italy

#150

Post by dfxm12 » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #7

The elephant in the room is the assumption that _everyone wants to be stacked on top of each other_. I do agree that designing cities around cars has ruined a lot of nice places though.

I'm not sure if you mean this literally as in huge apartment towers, literally as in something like a duplex/garden style apartment, or figuratively as in row homes. These are all very different housing situations.

Also, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that everyone wants. It's almost a tautology, so it's not really useful to make such statements without more context/clarification about...