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An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

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Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#21

Post by Tainnor »

atemerev wrote: post #2

This is how it works in European countries, e.g. France. “Race” never figures in any government documents, forms and surveys. Mentioning someone’s race considered to be somewhat rude and is regarded as a thing of the past. Not everybody is race-agnostic, but all government organizations and all businesses are required to be race-agnostic by law. This includes never asking about race, particularly in forms and surveys…

Identity politics does exist and is encouraged in Europe, it's just not based on "race" (in Europe, or at least in Germany, we prefer to day "ethnicity", as "race" has really bad connotations and is scientifically discarded as a concept).

But cultural identity politics have been going strong forever, going back probably at least to the 19th century idea of nation states. That's why minority languages often get special recognition etc.

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#23

Post by arel »

mikece wrote: post #12

Race or culture isn't the issue but "identity politics" which mandates that one must see themselves and others not as the unique and wonderful individuals they are but as an impersonal member of a class to be treated according to the understood (or assumed) qualities of that class. Nothing is more destructive to cordial interpersonal relations than saying "Oh, you're an X and I will treat you as X-types ought to be t…

What you're missing here is in reality, your life experience, outcomes and how you are treated in society can be very much a consequence of your "identity".

All groups are advocating for is equality of treatment from institutions and from society at large.

Is that too much to ask?

Once we get to that place there's nothing more marginalised groups would love to do then to stop being defined by race.

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#24

Post by 082349872349872 »

Joker_vD wrote: post #5

> the concept of ‘race’ is scientifically and socially unsupportable. Just like the concept of "culture". See https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/12/does-race-exist-does-c... , here's the kicker: "There were two arguments against race being a real concept: it didn’t cluster nicely, and within-group variation was greater than between group variation. And both of these are equally true of culture. Any mathematical argum…

It is much easier to change external categorisations of one's "culture" than to change external categorisations of one's "race"[1].

Then again, I think how we treat people ought to be just as independent of our guess as to their "culture" as of our guess as to their "race".

All humans, with the exception of Jesus H. Christ, are diploid. That must be what the "H" stands for, and I, for one, would attempt not to treat anyone differently just because they happened to be haploid.

[1] difficult, but not impossible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BsmaoQ3Hu4

or, including a genderswap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EwhkUHjleo

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#25

Post by Kednicma »

mikece wrote: post #12

Race or culture isn't the issue but "identity politics" which mandates that one must see themselves and others not as the unique and wonderful individuals they are but as an impersonal member of a class to be treated according to the understood (or assumed) qualities of that class. Nothing is more destructive to cordial interpersonal relations than saying "Oh, you're an X and I will treat you as X-types ought to be t…

Race is a little bit the issue, because there's no biological basis for the idea that humans aren't just one single species.

A genuine observation and appreciation of "race" consists of understanding that humans do not have a single appropriate skin tone, mostly. I'm not sure what else there is for you, but it's not there for me.

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#26

Post by throwaway894345 »

aklemm wrote: post #18
Joker_vD wrote: post #5

> the concept of ‘race’ is scientifically and socially unsupportable. Just like the concept of "culture". See https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/12/does-race-exist-does-c... , here's the kicker: "There were two arguments against race being a real concept: it didn’t cluster nicely, and within-group variation was greater than between group variation. And both of these are equally true of culture. Any mathematical argum…

Except that culture is escapable, changeable. Race isn’t. So what is your point exactly?

The immutability of race is one of the reasons why we ought not discriminate on the basis of race, but the parent is addressing the question of whether or not race is “real” and our inconsistent treatment of race and culture, another social construct.

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#27

Post by 082349872349872 »

cuillevel3 wrote: post #19

As a German I always feel offended, when American sign-up forms (conferences and such) ask for my 'race'. Are they asking for my migrant background? Asking for race is just so Nazi, what should I put there, "Herrenrasse", "Fremdrasse", ...? There are no different human races.

Yeah, I used to enter "mutt"

What do real Caucasians (people from the Caucasus) enter in these fields? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23914667

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#28

Post by slowmovintarget »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #9
atemerev wrote: post #2

This is how it works in European countries, e.g. France. “Race” never figures in any government documents, forms and surveys. Mentioning someone’s race considered to be somewhat rude and is regarded as a thing of the past. Not everybody is race-agnostic, but all government organizations and all businesses are required to be race-agnostic by law. This includes never asking about race, particularly in forms and surveys…

The argument put forth in the book Racecraft [1] is that America's founding on individual liberty juxtaposed with the economic reality of chattel slavery created a contradiction so stark that it was necessary to invent a framework to justify slavery culturally. [1] Fields, Karen E, and Barbara J. Fields. Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life. 2012.

We fought our bloodiest war attempting to destroy one side of that contradiction. Individual liberty remains the most important tenet of a free society. Preserving it demands personal responsibility and impartiality. Anything less is pandering.

Re: An Argument for Race Abolitionism (2020)

#30

Post by Kednicma »

Joker_vD wrote: post #5

> the concept of ‘race’ is scientifically and socially unsupportable. Just like the concept of "culture". See https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/12/does-race-exist-does-c... , here's the kicker: "There were two arguments against race being a real concept: it didn’t cluster nicely, and within-group variation was greater than between group variation. And both of these are equally true of culture. Any mathematical argum…

Are accents cultural or racial? There's plenty of cultural traits which are heritable and measurable. The difference is that there's only one human race, while there's many different cultural memeplexes.

Race literally doesn't exist: The partitions that you imagine as dividing people aren't actually backed by any particular observable or experiment. Meanwhile, cultural markers do exist: We can measure what people wear, speak, trade, value, etc.

Aside from accents, another good example is that of locally-grown staple foods. Different locales support different crops, so that merely living in a region for a time is sufficient to alter one's diet. Yet it is not due to differences in people, but differences in soil, which determine which crops are grown and eaten where.

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