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Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

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Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#11

Post by andybak »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #5
wegs wrote: post #3

Well, it's being done for all the wrong reasons, but I'd gladly take a relaxing of safety measures to be done with COVID, depending on the vaccine and the risks. The relatively known risks of some types of a vaccine seem a lot better than the unknown ones of COVID. I would want to wait for full phase III before we had a mandatory vaccine, relied on this fully, or otherwise did too much with it. But we can't ramp up p…

Really? The risks of COVID are pretty well known at this point, and for the vast majority of people they seem quite low.

I still get the feeling there's still a lot to discover about this disease.

And some will quibble over the precise definitions of "vast" and "low" in that statement.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#12

Post by andybak »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #10

No healthy child or adult (excluding the very old) should take this vaccine unless it's 500% safe because children and adults are NOT at risk for COVID. Really it's only the old people that should be given any kind of a COVID vaccine.

"NOT at risk" is a bold overstatement. We can debate how much risk but it's dishonest to say "no risk"

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#13

Post by henrikschroder »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #5
wegs wrote: post #3

Well, it's being done for all the wrong reasons, but I'd gladly take a relaxing of safety measures to be done with COVID, depending on the vaccine and the risks. The relatively known risks of some types of a vaccine seem a lot better than the unknown ones of COVID. I would want to wait for full phase III before we had a mandatory vaccine, relied on this fully, or otherwise did too much with it. But we can't ramp up p…

Really? The risks of COVID are pretty well known at this point, and for the vast majority of people they seem quite low.

I think the most important thing to remember is that the risk profile of covid-19 is vastly different for different people.

I'm sure as fuck not getting an untested vaccine, because I'm not in a risk group. If I catch the virus, my risk of death is in lightning strike territory.

For my 70+ dad, he's in a bunch of risk groups, which means the risk equation looks very different for him, and for him it might be worth the risk of an untested vaccine.

Everyone has to do the risk calculation for themselves, and everyone is going to come to different conclusions. That's how it's supposed to work, and that's how it works for pretty much every other non-childhood vaccine.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#14

Post by henrikschroder »

andybak wrote: post #11
_-___________-_ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? The risks of COVID are pretty well known at this point, and for the vast majority of people they seem quite low.

I still get the feeling there's still a lot to discover about this disease. And some will quibble over the precise definitions of "vast" and "low" in that statement.

If you're below 40 your risk of dying of the regular influenza is higher than the risk of dying of covid-19. If your fear of the flu doesn't motivate you to take the flu vaccine every year, rationally, you shouldn't want to take the covid-19 vaccine either.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#15

Post by hedgew »

Every day vaccines are delayed costs thousands of lives.

Bioethicists who have forbidden challenge trials in vaccine trials have firmly taken the no-action stance in the trolley problem.

A normal phase 3 trial gives the vaccine to volunteers and waits for them to get sick (or not). A challenge trial is the same, but infects the volunteers intentionally, which significantly speeds up the trial and reduces the sample size needed.

The trolley is running over thousands of people every day, and by flipping a switch you could reroute it to another rail where only a few people would be at risk. The modern bioethicist stance is that flipping this switch is unacceptable. Maybe waiting for people to randomly fall ill instead of acting is more holy and sacred — or perhaps "natural".

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#17

Post by emteycz »

hedgew wrote: post #15

Every day vaccines are delayed costs thousands of lives. Bioethicists who have forbidden challenge trials in vaccine trials have firmly taken the no-action stance in the trolley problem. A normal phase 3 trial gives the vaccine to volunteers and waits for them to get sick (or not). A challenge trial is the same, but infects the volunteers intentionally, which significantly speeds up the trial and reduces the sample s…

The bioethicists argue that perhaps having people stay at home and wear a mask when going outside is absolutely required would be better than untested vaccines.

Can you imagine what happens if the antivax crowd gains actual arguments? I don't want to.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#19

Post by cblconfederate »

hedgew wrote: post #15

Every day vaccines are delayed costs thousands of lives. Bioethicists who have forbidden challenge trials in vaccine trials have firmly taken the no-action stance in the trolley problem. A normal phase 3 trial gives the vaccine to volunteers and waits for them to get sick (or not). A challenge trial is the same, but infects the volunteers intentionally, which significantly speeds up the trial and reduces the sample s…

maybe because the legal stakes are much higher? It does seem that a lot of scientists will 'let nature take its course' to absolve their ingroup from responsibility. Which makes sense in a culture of outrage.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#20

Post by cblconfederate »

swiley wrote: post #2

This is why people are uncomfortable with mandatory vaccination orders. I’m pro vaccine and in general well tested vaccines are very important for eradicating some pretty awful diseases. I have all of mine and I’m thankful my parents were sane and paid attention to science. Safe modern medicine involves care and testing, that’s the whole point of organizations like the FDA. If we just carelessly push stuff like this…

is it going to be mandatory?
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