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After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

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Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#381
post #64

I’m continuously baffled by those that claim that nuclear power is safe. Look at Fukushima for example. It seems hard to imagine a nuclear power plant design, even Gen III or IV that would be immune to any possible natural disaster. Analysis of nuclear power should take into account Black Swan events: no matter how well designed, some fraction of plants will cause INES Level 7 disasters. If the resulting cost (ie $10…

Guess how many people realistically died from Fukushima radiations? Likely zero [1]. People died from the tsunami, and from the irrationnal panic of the evacuation of people from hospital. Read the Wikipedia article and check the sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disa...

[1] https://www.unscear.org/docs/publications/2013/UNSCEAR_2013_...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#382
post #4

For the uninitiated, nuclear power is actually much, much safer than it was in the previous century, and fossil fuel power plants have killed exponentially more people through pollution than all nuclear power accidents combined – it's just not something that happens all at once so it doesn't seem like a big deal to most people. We will not be able to "defeat" climate change and keep this planet inhabitable for future…

The problem with nuclear isn't whether you can build a safe plant, you can.

The problem with nuclear is all the assumptions under which a perfectly safe plant is actually perfectly safe (proper maintenance, training, etc.).

I don't believe those assumptions always hold in practice. At the end of the day, these plants are operated by people, and private companies, who have many interests beyond keeping the plant "perfectly safe" (like making money) and also operate under constraints that prevent them from actually keeping the plant "perfectly safe" even if they wanted to (like lack of money).

The problem with nuclear isn't technological, but social. It allows a relatively small bunch of shitty people and companies to cause tremendous amounts of devastation.

Remove people from the "nuclear energy safety equation" and I'm all in with nuclear. Telling me that new plants are perfectly safe as long as people and private companies don't do shit, reads like these plants aren't safe at all to me.

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And this is without taking into account all the unknown unknowns, like all the natural disasters we can't even predict or imagine, which all plant designs just assume cannot happen.

Just claiming that modern nuclear plants are safe, for all potential world states is BS, because nobody can imagine, much less know, what all those potential world states are.

Sure coal kills people, but what makes many think its safer than nuclear is that we understand how that happens, we understand where coal goes.

See this John Oliver episode about nuclear waste. After 70 years, we haven't even been able to agree in a location to dispose nuclear waste, much less build one, and use it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwY2E0hjGuU&list=PLMJ9OaOo9J...

All the assumptions that nuclear was safer than X over the last 70 year assumed that such a location would exist and be used.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#383
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish nuclear advocates would stop selectively quoting to try to hide things. Almost no one wants to continue with fossil fuels, and instead the competition is renewable. "This comparison" mentioned in that quote doesn't include renewables (it was from 2007) but from the very same page , in the very next section : > Modern renewables are about as safe as nuclear energy https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-en…

But you cannot use 100% renewable energy without some storage technology not currently known. Nuclear is the only carbon free energy source we have that can supply power reliably.

Nuclear has a similar problem once you get near 100%, the demand isn't actually flat (spikes during daylight and winter) andthe seasonal variation differs around the globe.

Tge solutions are similar too, build nore so you can cover the peak, or build storage to buffer in the short and long term.

Once you start buffering, you would choose to overbuild renewables because its cheaper.

Nuclear has a very niche future around 5% of global energy, Solar and wind will be doing the heavy lifting.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ongoing shittiness is predictable and easy to understand. We've survived so far, surely we can survive if it gets just a little worse. Big disasters are unpredictable and hard to understand. One of those could end the world at any time. AFAICT that's the whole reason people are more afraid of them.

> Big disasters are unpredictable and hard to understand. One of those could end the world at any time. In the context of nuclear reactors, Fukushima and Chernobyl are pretty much the worst case scenario. A large nuclear disaster is very disruptive to the immediate area but it would not "end the world" in any sense.

I should have been clear that I was describing perception, not reality. :)

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#385
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for nuclear but the safety record talk always seems disingenuous or at least obtuse to me when the stats focus on day to day operations but the fears are about worst case scenarios. I also feel like the industry would do better if it rallied behind specific new technologies so politicians could rally behind molten salt reactors (or what have you) and placate fears about "old nuclear" designs.

> but the safety record talk always seems disingenuous This is WHY I support nuclear, because of their safety record. All the people in all the nuclear accidents (or usage) ever that have died is far less than the yearly death from coal or oil or natural gas. As a death per TWhr it is even lower than solar[0]. So I'm a bit confused by the safety concerns. Having worked with nuclear materials, the reason it is so safe…

> All the people in all the nuclear accidents (or usage) ever that have died is

There is no consensus about it.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl:_Consequences_of_the...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#386
post #86
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still haven't heard a convincing protocol for long term storage of spent fuel. That's even worse than a remotely possible nuclear disaster: because unless a solution is found, it's a certainty.

Nuclear waste is actually the best kind of waste because of its very high density and the fact that it's solid. The density is so high that the US has accumulated just 83,000 tons over several decades operating nuclear power plants: > https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-... That may sound a lot but compared to coal or, in fact, any other type of power generating plant, the amount is absolutely…

At the end of 2016, the volume of radioactive waste present in France amounted to 1.5 million m3. This volume increased by 58% between 2002 and 2016. High level waste (HA) represents 0.2% of the volumes but 95% of the radioactivity. The latter have been multiplied by 2.2 over the period 2002-2016.

Source: https://ree.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/themes/pressions-e...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Renewable energy sources have zero fuel costs. That's not true. It costs fuel to mine the resourses needed, to build the equipments, to install them, to maintain them. The IPCC states that globally, nuclear power emits _less_ greenhouse gases than hydro and solar, and emits about the same as wind. [1] [1] https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5... Table A.III.2, page 1335 For more info, please…

The table linked lists the following lifecycle emissions (min/median/max) * Hydropower: 1.0/24/2200 * Concentrated solar: 8.8/27/63 * Rooftop Solar PV: 26/41/60 * Utility Solar PV: 18/48/180 * Wind Onshore: 7.0/11/56 * Wind Offshore: 8.0/12/35 * Nuclear: 3.7/12/110 I've gotta say, Nuclear/Utility Solar/Hydro all have massive ranges in their lifecycle emissions. If you're basing "which tech has the lowest lifecycle em…

What units are we talking here?

Joules? Bananas? Pears? My physics teacher would say...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#388
post #49

A general anti-science movement really hurts human progress with these 3 particularly bad: 1) anti vaccines 2) anti GMO 3) anti nuclear Great to see Dems starting to endorse nuclear after decades of oppositions (see John Kerry’s boneheaded earlier efforts to kill it)

Labeling differing opinions antiscience really hurts discussion and quite ironic.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#389
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one talks about it because it isn't relevant. The fact that a 1970s plant didn't get every safety upgrade over the course of 40 years is possible. But if you do a cost-benifit analysis of nuclear power and just add Fukushima to the cost column it is still an absurdly good idea to go nuclear. The status quo we currently enjoy is comparable to the worst-case in nuclear. If we applied nuclear safety standards I suspe…

>No-one talks about it because it isn't relevant. The fact that a 1970s plant didn't get every safety upgrade over the course of 40 years is possible. You dont think plans on how to prevent a disaster caused by a Tsunami 3 years prior to a disaster caused by Tsunami is relevant? Interesting world view.

I can't quite figure out why you think it is interesting, so I'll post a reply to my top 2 guesses at what you mean:

1) If you think that the disaster should be considered, I don't see why you think my view is interesting. I'm arguing we should just chalk it up to bad safety practices, which does happen from time to time. If we assume one Fukushima every 20-25 years (which seems absurdly pessimistic given that all the new designs are much safer than Fukushima from the get go and it took somethign close to a 1:500 year disaster to breach Fukushima's design) then the cost-benifits are still in nuclear's favour. A nuclear catastrophe is less damaging than business-as-usual for coal. Living next to a coal plant will have detectable negative health impacts in the community due directly to the coal plant. Living next to Fukushima - even up to the meltdown - won't. The economic consequences of owning property in the exclusion zone probably even that up, but I would still want to see the stats before accepting Fukushima is worse. Coal dust is nasty stuff.

2) If you think that the disaster was nearly prevented and should be discounted on that basis; that is a bad argument and you should abandon it. The disaster did happen and that needs to be dealt with.

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