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After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

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Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#371
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly I think nuclear triggers a cognitive bias where humans will tolerate ongoing low-level shittiness, but really struggle with large catastrophes, even if the catastrophe is far less damaging than the ongoing low-level damage. However, I think the resistance is also because the nature of the catastrophe is different. Have coal or gas plants ever created a Chernobyl-style exclusion zone? I know that mining/drillin…

>> it seems like price is really driving renewable adoption at this point. Another article fresh from Wired about the aging solar panel mess and the toxic waste they're leaving behind: Solar panels are an increasingly important source of renewable power that will play an essential role in fighting climate change. They are also complex pieces of technology that become big, bulky sheets of electronic waste at the end o…

The pollution from solar panels is absolutely miniscule compared to the pollution produced by fossil fuel power. By a gigantic margin.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#372
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Germany a good example? Renewables were less than 20% 10 years ago and are now more than 50%. Meanwhile it has one of the most stable electricity network. https://www.energy-charts.de/energy_pie_de.htm?year=2020

The 50% is for peak renewable usage. To keep grid stability, Germany depends a lot on French nuclear power plants, imports from elsewhere (usually not green), and ridiculously dirty lignite power plants with natural gas for load following. And they are building more and more gas power plants and can't really decrease the amount of dirty coal (lignite fueled power plants make other coal-fired power plants look clean )

Did you actually look at the link that I posted? Those are the numbers for all of 2020.

Germany doesn’t depend on French nuclear power. Germany was a net exporter to France in many of the last years. Many neighboring countries have even higher percentage of renewables (Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Norway which is connected via nord.link).

Even though I would have shit down fossil fuel power plants before nuclear, Germany still manages to decrease fossil energy use in their energy mix: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiemix#/media/Datei:Energi...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Germany a good example? Renewables were less than 20% 10 years ago and are now more than 50%. Meanwhile it has one of the most stable electricity network. https://www.energy-charts.de/energy_pie_de.htm?year=2020

Germany imports much of its electricity, which often isn’t generated from renewable resources.

Germany produces much of electricity itself and imports some.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Germany a good example? Renewables were less than 20% 10 years ago and are now more than 50%. Meanwhile it has one of the most stable electricity network. https://www.energy-charts.de/energy_pie_de.htm?year=2020

Germany imports much of its electricity, which often isn’t generated from renewable resources.

Germany is a net energy exporter of 36.6 TWh last year.

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrag...

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#375
post #171
post #64

I’m continuously baffled by those that claim that nuclear power is safe. Look at Fukushima for example. It seems hard to imagine a nuclear power plant design, even Gen III or IV that would be immune to any possible natural disaster. Analysis of nuclear power should take into account Black Swan events: no matter how well designed, some fraction of plants will cause INES Level 7 disasters. If the resulting cost (ie $10…

Oh jeezs, let's bury our heads in sand and never get out of our houses. How safe is air travel? Taking a car? Fact is, we take calculated risks every day - some smaller, some larger. Unless you build the plant next to an ocean with on-going seismic activity, you should be pretty safe unless an asteroid hits straight to the vicinity of the plant. Counting out the crazy scientists who decide to do experiments in the mi…

Well look at the Boeing Max desaster

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from the very biased "endcoal.org": "Coal is responsible for over 800,000 premature deaths per year globally and many millions more serious and minor illnesses." https://endcoal.org/health/#:~:text=Coal%20is%20responsible%... . from the less biased (depending on the metallicity of your hat) World Health Organization: "Ambient (outdoor) air pollution in both cities and rural areas was estimated to cause 4.2 million pr…

No, I was able to find stats about fossil fuels. What I question is that it would be less harmful to drop a reactor right into the middle of a city. Remember, my question was about worst case scenario for nuclear, which the very pro-nuclear crowd here has so far been unable to describe on the many occasions that nuclear is hailed here as our saving grace. They instead point to Fukushima and Chernobyl and say "see, th…

Didn't Chernobyl almost make a huge swath of Europe uninhabitable? Wasn't that the takeaway from the miniseries? That a lot of people gave their lives to prevent an unfathomable disaster?

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#377
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, so we have to divide "centuries" by 5 or more, that's still long enough to help with the transition. Not sure if that's what you meant though? Please correct me if I misunderstood.

200 years / 5 gives about 40 years useful life. Some technologies (thorium MSR) remain unproved, so there's R&D lead time which is likely prohibitive --- we're going to go into this with the designs we have now . Construction and planning still takes 10--20 years, and commercial viability remains dicey. (Illinois is looking to shut down two nuclear plants not for political/public opposition but economic reasons: http…

> 200 years / 5 gives about 40 years useful life.

Well, no, it's not that simple. Some advances would require new reactors, such as breeders, but even in a closed system with breeders there would be maybe a 2:1 ratio of traditional burner reactors to breeders (producing fuel for the burners). So even in such a scenario existing LWR's wouldn't be a stranded investment.

But even if we forget breeding for a moment, an increase in usage of uranium would make it economical to exploit poorer deposits (that 200 year figure is at current prices and with current extraction technology), increasing the total economically recoverable deposits (this is similar to practically all other mining, as technology progresses and price increases the economically recoverable deposits also increase). And at some point we will hit the crossover point where, like in the SA article you linked to earlier, extraction from seawater becomes economic. Giving an additional 60000 years of deposits with current usage.

So between breeding (about a factor of 200 improvement in resource utilization) and seawater extraction, we have enough uranium for at least 60000*200 = 12 million years with current usage. Even if we increase usage by a factor of 100 (say, getting rid of fossil fuels thus increasing electricity usage by about ~3x, and increasing the share of nuclear to, say, 50% of the total electricity usage, and still have quite some room for increasing consumption), we still have fuel for 120000 years. Probably more than enough time to get fusion working, or if not, we're hosed anyway in the long run.

> we're going to go into this with the designs we have now.

I agree with that. While there's exiting things on the horizon, it makes sense to start with what's available and mature now.

That, however, doesn't mean we're locked into that forever and ever. We can start deploying traditional LWR designs today, while at the same time commercializing breeders, seawater extraction of U, Th, and whatnot.

None of this means that a "nuclear future" will be inevitable, certainly. I just don't think that the availability of fuel is the limiting factor. AFAICS, the biggest threats to nuclear energy is an inability to deliver on time and on budget combined with political opposition killing the industry.

If wind, solar, geothermal, storage, smart grids etc. manage to kill of the fossil industry without the help of nuclear, hey, I'm ecstatic. I just think having the nuclear option on the table makes success more likely.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#378
post #4

For the uninitiated, nuclear power is actually much, much safer than it was in the previous century, and fossil fuel power plants have killed exponentially more people through pollution than all nuclear power accidents combined – it's just not something that happens all at once so it doesn't seem like a big deal to most people. We will not be able to "defeat" climate change and keep this planet inhabitable for future…

> Nuclear energy is by far the safest energy source in this comparison – it results in more than 442 times fewer deaths than the 'dirtiest' forms of coal; 330 times fewer than coal; 250 times less than oil; and 38 times fewer than gas.

If I look at the graph to the right and do the division, the numbers don't come out the same as what is quoted. This may have to do with the abominable "x times fewer than y" that makes no sense and likely has a different meaning for every reader.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#379
post #4

For the uninitiated, nuclear power is actually much, much safer than it was in the previous century, and fossil fuel power plants have killed exponentially more people through pollution than all nuclear power accidents combined – it's just not something that happens all at once so it doesn't seem like a big deal to most people. We will not be able to "defeat" climate change and keep this planet inhabitable for future…

I do not know the current data, but previously the catastrophy rate was by design below 1 in 10000 years. But this is per plant, we have about 400 plants, so 1 catastrophy per 25 years on average; this values agrees with experiment.

About your statistics: that it is safer was pure luck. In the fukushima incident there were depending on the season two prevalent wind direction either towards the ocean or towards Tokyo. So with a high chance in the range around 50% Tokyo would have been to be evacuated. If anybody has better numbers let me know.

To me not counting this in, is like crossing the street with eye closed and arguing it if not hit so far so good with dismissing close encounters.

I would like to see numbers including this.

Re: After 48 years, Democrats endorse nuclear energy in platform

#380

Renewable energy sources have zero fuel costs. Their potential for life-threatening disasters - on the scale of Fukushima, Chernobyl, coal ash floods, etc. - is zero. Just as with coal mines, uranium mines and oilfields, there's a large upfront cost ... but a much lower cost to the environment. Furthermore, anyone can create solar-powered electricity, anywhere. There will be no wars over access to sunlight. Sunlight…

> Renewable energy sources have zero fuel costs. That's not true. It costs fuel to mine the resourses needed, to build the equipments, to install them, to maintain them. The IPCC states that globally, nuclear power emits _less_ greenhouse gases than hydro and solar, and emits about the same as wind. [1] [1] https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/ipcc_wg3_ar5... Table A.III.2, page 1335 For more info, please…

The table linked lists the following lifecycle emissions (min/median/max)

* Hydropower: 1.0/24/2200

* Concentrated solar: 8.8/27/63

* Rooftop Solar PV: 26/41/60

* Utility Solar PV: 18/48/180

* Wind Onshore: 7.0/11/56

* Wind Offshore: 8.0/12/35

* Nuclear: 3.7/12/110

I've gotta say, Nuclear/Utility Solar/Hydro all have massive ranges in their lifecycle emissions. If you're basing "which tech has the lowest lifecycle emissions" from the median alone, you're not getting the full story. Rooftop solar is a lot more consistent than Nuclear, for example.

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