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The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

theguardian.com

151–160 of 167 posts

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems? I've done that for decades. I'd periodically suffer from debilitating back pain, where I couldn't even tie my shoes. I finally went to the doc, who said my problem was "weak back muscles". I pointed out the running, and the doc said "running does nothing for your back." He gave me an illustrated guide to back exercises, aka core strength exer…

Can you share your "illustrated guide to back exercises, aka core strength exercises" ?

No, it's long gone :-) But you can find a lot on youtube. Many of them are in the P-90X "Ab Ripper X" video. It's mainly lying prone on the floor and lifting both ends of your body 25 times, then leaving the ends on the floor and lifting the center. Repeat on left side, right side, top side, bottom side.

The hardest one for me is lying face down, arms extended forward. Lift your chest and legs off the ground. Oww! These are called "Supermans" because you look like Superman flying through the air.

It'll give you a vast new appreciation for when a dancer lifts his partner overhead by the waist and she gracefully lies prone only supported by his hands on her waist.

I double-dare you to even get your hands an inch off the ground!

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#152
Exercise ball is the best chair for me. It has the best cushioning unmatched to any unreasonably expensive chairs. Backrest and armrests aren't necessary. You should have developed enough core to support your weight.

You are free from developing injuries caused by long use of ordinary chair.

It's cheap and portable too.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#153

For anyone that have sore butt syndrome, here's my personal tip: improve blood circulation of your...butt! I bought Steelcase Think six month ago to replace my $50 chair, and while it is good chair with good price and comfy-but-firm seat cushion, it cannot solve my chronic "sore butt" problem. Half and hour in the chair and my butt soreness begin to appear. Doesn't help that I'm the type that sit in front of monitor…

Sore butts are a common theme in cycling :) On longer rides people might prefer harder saddles. A softer seating clamps down on your soft tissue and prevents proper blood circulation. Having a harder seating will make you sit on your sit bones and have your blood flow free. The sit bones can start to feel a bit irritated after some time, but that is the time to get up for a walk. If your soft tissue (from lack of blood flow) starts hurting, it is because it is starting to get damaged. Even if you would walk for an hour and sit again, the pain would come back instantly.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not comfortable but I don't think that's the worst chair especially if you pay attention how you sit in it. The worst chair is the cheap office chair that is often misaligned, wobbly and encouraging you to rest your back in a wrong way. And the free rotating swivel makes sure you are you really have a bad posture and not being able to sit properly. I relearned to sit down and now prefer a rigid surface and most…

You shouldn't have to pay attention to how you sit in it. there is literally only one position to sit in.

You can almost certainly improve how you sit down. A lot of people just sort of flop down and sit with their hips slid forward and a pronounced bend in their back. Anecdotally I have also noticed many of the same people complaining about a lack of legroom in trains, airplanes, cars and so on.

If they would simply sit down by pushing their butt and lower back into the chair instead of lazily flopping down, there would be plenty of space.

(Not directed at those people with long legs, who do have genuine legroom issues even when sitting up straight)

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#155

My sense is that we all just need to move more: sit, stand, roll around on the rug, squat, go for a walk, you get the idea. Basically don't spend the entire working day in a single position. I briefly went through a phase where I thought I'd enjoy the no-furniture lifestyle, but it wasn't for me. It also wasn't for my partner, nor my parents when they come to visit, nor anyone else whom I might want to invite into th…

> I don't want to Marie Kondo the shit out of my space—I want to surround myself with beautiful, practical pieces of furniture that I enjoy using.

Isn't that her point? "keep what brings you joy?" If you enjoy the furniture, I think her philosophy would have you keep it.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#156
post #153

For anyone that have sore butt syndrome, here's my personal tip: improve blood circulation of your...butt! I bought Steelcase Think six month ago to replace my $50 chair, and while it is good chair with good price and comfy-but-firm seat cushion, it cannot solve my chronic "sore butt" problem. Half and hour in the chair and my butt soreness begin to appear. Doesn't help that I'm the type that sit in front of monitor…

Sore butts are a common theme in cycling :) On longer rides people might prefer harder saddles. A softer seating clamps down on your soft tissue and prevents proper blood circulation. Having a harder seating will make you sit on your sit bones and have your blood flow free. The sit bones can start to feel a bit irritated after some time, but that is the time to get up for a walk. If your soft tissue (from lack of blo…

That's new to me! because I never ride a bike more than 10 minutes at a time haha.

Everything you describe is what I experience. I have good time sitting on my old wooden chair, and yes, the butt is free of pain (but my back hurt instead, because its backrest is in upright 90 degree angle) also there is not armrest whatsoever so I can't work for long....

well, maybe that's the point, I need to move more.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#157

Chairs need a failsafe mode. This is what I call better design. Recently my father sat on a chair that collapsed underneath him. It was a seemingly okay teak garden chair that had been recently in service and offered up to important guests. So in that way it was good that it was him rather than his brother in law or elderly neighbour that received a bruised elbow. This got me thinking about the safety of chairs. This…

Realistically, how many people get injured from collapsed chairs? I think less than from fire or drowned or something. Just buy not the cheapest chair, and you will be safe.

There is no such thing as an accident. If your chair breaks in a restaurant you can sue them. I bet the restaurant owners never thought of this when setting up. Injuries can also be quite serious, it depends on the circumstance and the individual.

Your argument is the same for airbags, seatbelts and wearing hard hats. We live in a Health and Safety world where liability exists. Except for chairs.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#158
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found youth will overcome a lot of bad ergonomic habits. You are doing well by standing. Keeping your core strong will help. The thing you have to ask yourself is - are you using willpower to overcome bad seating? If you have good ergonomics you will maintain good posture even when you're tired. The idea is to balance your body so it stays in place. Keep your head balanced, your arms relaxed without hunching your s…

At 47 I like dining table chairs almost more than office chairs. Office chairs only help with positioning myself to the desk as those roll and twist, otherwise a simple dining table chair provides the same comfort while sitting. I also have a standing desk and use it often, it is good for my legs and posture. But I also do work laying down on sofa or bed from time to time when the activity and mental state asks for i…

Let me make a guess, you are around 5'11" (180cm) and 175 lbs (80kg), or around average for a male? Because a "dining table chair", a universal product if there is one, is made for average sized humans.

It is funny though that Aeron is brought up as an example of a "universal" design: they are admittedly not universal since they offer 3 sizes (A, B and C). When looking at chairs, I've only went with their Embody because of the fluid back mobility it allows when sitting, though I still wonder if I should have gotten Aeron C (I always found it sad they did not continue with the practice of differently sized chairs with Embody which I love). I've also have a sit/stand desk that I switch between every day for the last ~10 years, but I've still developed back problems.

Why do I say all that — at 6'5" (195cm) I believe to have pretty strong core and legs, but I developed back problems when I got a kid (herniated discs, with a nerve getting pinched in the lumbar area recently). I live in a world where everything is too low for me, and I have to take an unergonomic position to achieve many things. Especially with kids (baby cots, strollers, they are really short, but everything, really).

A dining table chair has a seat length that generally allows me to only rest most of my bottom on it, but basically nothing of the thighs (which are also longer than average even for people my own height), which means that majority of my 90-100kg weight is concentrated on a small area. That hurts, so I have to move around and change the area under pressure.

I had to stop playing jumping sports (I jump around 30 inches/75cm high when not in regular exercise, so that's how far down I "fall" when going down) because impact on landing was too strong and it started hurting in my back. Yet after being in bed rest for 5 days for a pinched nerve, I went for physical therapy and could immediately hold plank position for >1 minute. "Your core is strong, so it is probably genetics", my physiotherapist would say. It's not only genetics, it is the fact that I am outside the design range for all the products that people use every day (I am probably among the 3% of largest humans and even the widest covering "universal" products cover from 5-95%: I can imagine very short people to have similar issues). I can barely find a car I can comfortably drive (if I push the seat back enough so my thighs rest on the seat instead of being in a squat, steering column will frequently not come out long enough, and my shoulders will hurt). I might fit in a Mercedes S-Class, but sorry, I can't afford it (though even that is designed for comfortable sitting in the back).

And I thought that's what the OP is about. Are you averagely sized, or do you maybe have some parts extra long or extra short? Or are your shoulders narrow or maybe extra wide (eg. I can imagine someone with very wide shoulders having more trouble with laptop keyboards)? Even the way our elbows and tendons connect is very different, so relative position of every limb could be taken into account to develop non-universal products.

I guess you have to find where you are "unusual" in your body constitution to really emphatise with the OP and how "universal" design is not the way to go when designing products for the physical world.

The same holds for the virtual world, but for some marginalized groups (at least in the past, like people with disabilities), legislation is required to make sure the basics are available to them. But generally, the market is ripe for less universal products.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#159

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one that seems to be happy to just sit on a dining chair when at my desk? When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a lot of energy researching and discussing chairs etc. I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day. But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old woo…

>I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems? I think there are a lot of stressed and unconditioned office workers who want some magical device to solve everything. Vertical mice, split vertical keyboards, expensive chairs. None of it replaces exercise. Might be a controversial opinion.

But there are also us who are simply outside the size range any chair is designed for (I've generally been at 90-95kg at 195cm before hurting my back and limiting sports). Unfortunately, but expensive chairs are then usually the only way to go if you want to get a comparable experience to what "average size" humans get with "any chair". I can easily imagine short people having similar problems on the other end of the scale (hurting thighs because their feet can't reach the ground), or simply disproportionate people too.

There is no amount of exercise that will let any human hold a squat position for 8 hours day-in, day-out.

As OP indicates, "universal" design is the problem.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#160

My sense is that we all just need to move more: sit, stand, roll around on the rug, squat, go for a walk, you get the idea. Basically don't spend the entire working day in a single position. I briefly went through a phase where I thought I'd enjoy the no-furniture lifestyle, but it wasn't for me. It also wasn't for my partner, nor my parents when they come to visit, nor anyone else whom I might want to invite into th…

> I don't want to Marie Kondo the shit out of my space—I want to surround myself with beautiful, practical pieces of furniture that I enjoy using. Isn't that her point? "keep what brings you joy?" If you enjoy the furniture, I think her philosophy would have you keep it.

Yeah, you're correct. That's her point, I think?

What I'm driving at is that the minimalism and tidying-up trend leaves a lot to be desired, and I've known a few people who have gone too far with it. But that's my opinion. If you want to live with two plates and two glasses and one pan and a single spatula, by all means.

If you want to donate four bookshelves worth of physical reading material and go Kindle-only, so be it. I think your space will be lesser without those books, but it ain't my space.

I like homes that look and feel lived in. I've walked in to homes that don't have a trace of humanity in them and I find it quite depressing. Modern architecture, interior design, and a good deal of modern furniture pieces strike me as bland and unremarkable.

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