Live data from Hacker News

The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

theguardian.com

61–70 of 167 posts

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#61

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one that seems to be happy to just sit on a dining chair when at my desk? When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a lot of energy researching and discussing chairs etc. I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day. But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old woo…

>I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems? I think there are a lot of stressed and unconditioned office workers who want some magical device to solve everything. Vertical mice, split vertical keyboards, expensive chairs. None of it replaces exercise. Might be a controversial opinion.

This is literally the opposite of a controversial opinion. It's just the magic solution in a different shape.

Most things in life aren't some sort of instant solution. If you run you won't live to be a hundred. If you smoke you won't get lung cancer. What these actions do is shift your probability distribution in certain ways. Running frequently improves your overall life-expectancy, smoking increases your risk of lung cancer¹. You can do everything right and still have trouble. You can avoid every intervention and still have things work out.

So, if you're outcomes-oriented you modify your environment and behaviour to match the outcomes you want based on what you know to be capable. Getting vertical mice, split keyboards, expensive chairs are all interventions that shift your distribution to better outcomes. Lifting well and frequently, having better posture, taking breaks to move are also interventions that shift your distribution to better outcomes. Each intervention moves you to a better state of being.

Some interventions require you to apply techniques of willpower and motivation. Others require you to place yourself in an environment where those things aren't tested. Yet others are just tools. I think I would go out on a limb to say that most people younger than their early 30s who aim to spend themselves into good health are making moves that are rational.

Credentials here at bottom to prove I'm not some fat guy trying to justify not working out. My lift PRs indicate I'm not a novice (though not particularly exceptional). My weight at PRs (unless otherwise stated) was 165 lbs (75 kg). My height is 6' (184 cm).

Deadlift: 375 lbs at 180 lbs body weight, 3x315 lbs at 165 lbs

Squat: 275 lbs

Front Squat: 225 lbs

Clean and Jerk: 135 lbs

5k time: 23:53 (within 3 mos of the PRs)

¹ A quick test for your intuition for these events is to imagine in your head what you think the incidence of lung cancer in heavy lifetime smokers is and then look it up. 95%? 75%? 50%? 25%? 12%? 5%?

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#62

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one that seems to be happy to just sit on a dining chair when at my desk? When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a lot of energy researching and discussing chairs etc. I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day. But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old woo…

I used a dining chair for a while and it was ok. It got the job done. But then I got a "proper" office chair and I would never go back. My only regret is that I did not make the purchase earlier.

Before purchasing a chair, I went to an office furniture and tested several chairs and had the employee point out why people preferred different chairs. In the end, I got an Aeron. Also, it comes in 3 sizes and I made sure to get the correct size for me.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#63

We would do better for ourselves to get rid of chairs entirely and sit on the floor. Getting down and up from the floor is a natural human movement that would keep us all fitter into old age.

Get rid of all furniture... just levels.

Ok Cosmo Kramer..

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#64
post #60

If anyone is looking for a better chair, we found this was a great time to pick up Herman Miller Aerons off of craigslist. There's a steady stream of small-to-medium offices in our area closing, and they're all liquidating office furniture. We picked up 2 for $500. They're a massive improvement over my $80 chair that was fine for a few hours a week pre-WFH, and my back is feeling much better.

I found my Aeron chair triggered my lower back pain. Since then I’ve moved to mostly using a standing mat and standing up as well as strengthening my core. I might try sitting on my Aeron chair after a few months of core strengthening

>lower back pain

How low?

I've had a terrible pain in my tailbone going on a few months now. I finally relented and got one of those donut shaped memory foam pillows. 40€ for a block of foam with a hole in it is criminal, but after using it for a week now, I must admit it does help a lot.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-ahs13/ is an example of someone doing this in their home. Personally, my setup is a coffee table along with a zafu (buckwheat hull filled floor cushion) and sheepskins or a zabuton to cushion the floor a little. It's very comfortable, although I'd like to also have a standing desk to go with it. Coffee tables tend to be a pretty good height for this purpose if you wan…

> https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-ahs13/ Interesting reading, thanks. Would you be so kind as to share a picture of your setup ? To have a rough idea of heights, space arrangements, elbow positioning, etc. ?

Yeah, here is what I'm working with as of now. Moved recently (like everyone else) and still getting an office setup, but this is the basics. As far as height, I'd say it's a very ergonomically sound setup when in kneeling position with the cushion in between your feet. Laptop just below eye level, arms level, etc.

I think the biggest benefits are it forces you to move and adjust a little bit more than in a chair, and forces you to use your muscles to sit properly much more. Would highly recommend to anyone. https://ibb.co/XYN3HFx

The coffee table is https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/lisabo-coffee-table-ash-veneer-... The sheepskin is from sheepskin town, but any cushioning that softens the floor for your ankles/knees is good.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#67
My sense is that we all just need to move more: sit, stand, roll around on the rug, squat, go for a walk, you get the idea. Basically don't spend the entire working day in a single position.

I briefly went through a phase where I thought I'd enjoy the no-furniture lifestyle, but it wasn't for me. It also wasn't for my partner, nor my parents when they come to visit, nor anyone else whom I might want to invite into the home.

I don't want to Marie Kondo the shit out of my space—I want to surround myself with beautiful, practical pieces of furniture that I enjoy using.

I don't think most people go and try out furniture before they bring it home. I'm talking multiple trips to a furniture store, where you go and sit and explore the same few pieces over and over and until you're sure you've found something you love.

You've got to stay seated for a bit to figure out where the pressure points are, whether or not the angle or depth of a seat makes your legs go numb, or hurts your back, etc. Do you like a firm seat? Do you like to sit "on" the cushions, or "down in to" the cushions? You want something with a high seat, or a low seat? There's a lot of furniture out there. It pays to take time to do the research, learn about how it's built, learn about different fabric types and how they affect the way a cushion holds it shape, then spend a good deal of money on a quality product.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference in quality between buying a chair from West Elm and buying a chair from Knoll. For instance, I think this is one of the most comfortable and practical chairs on the planet: https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-chair

We use it as a dining chair, and as a reading chair with an ottoman, and as a standard desk task chair. It's truly wonderful. Is it expensive? Yes it is. But it looks great, it's built well, it has a firm and comfortable seat, and it'll last a lifetime.

But hey, comfort is subjective, you like what you like!

Edit for those who are furniture shopping:

- Saarinen chair linked above also comes with casters and hydraulic lift: https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-chair-s...

- Don't knock it, it's surprisingly comfortable for long stretches: https://www.knoll.com/product/brno-chair-flat-bar

- Great reading chair (with ottoman) if you have the space: https://www.knoll.com/product/womb-chair

- Of course, the Eames lounge chair is a classic, though if you're taller than 5'8" go with the Tall version as you'll get a deeper seat and head support. For those with lumbar spine issues, probably not the most comfortable: https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge-seating...

- Wonderfully firm sofa, great for long meetings, reading with attention. If you like to lounge, not great for movie nights. Durable fabric options, along with custom leather: https://www.roomandboard.com/catalog/living/sofas-and-lovese...

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#68

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one that seems to be happy to just sit on a dining chair when at my desk? When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a lot of energy researching and discussing chairs etc. I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day. But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old woo…

[deleted]

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#69
post #49

I have been trying to find info on laying down desks and chairs in the past few weeks, but there is really not a lot of people who have experienced with it. If you had, please comment here

Here is my setup, which is a very inexpensive, low-footprint way of doing it:

1. A large lap desk. This is a powerful tool for adding flexibility as you'll see. It lets you keep all the peripherals near you. I currently use it with a USB hub, a 65% mechanical keyboard, a keypad with macro functions, and a trackball mouse.

2. A floor chair with reclining functions. The one I have is one of the cheapest on Amazon, basically a folding backrest with a bit of cushion.

3. A laptop/monitor arm and a shelf to hang it off of.

With a laptop angled at 90 degrees so that the screen is overhead, I have a fully supinated setup on the floor, with the floor chair folded most of the way back for support.

But it gets better. With a low folding table or breakfast tray I can switch the laptop and chair over to floor seating. Here the lap desk serves as a way to let me move around more. This is a great way to add variety of posture and stretch as I work, and I find that I use different positions for different levels of intensity during the day. Supination is better for passive viewing, while upright with no support is focused, intense. Seated with the chair reclined is the medium for "Tired but still want to work".

And then I still have more traditional feet-dangling seats I can use too. Again, just haul over the lap desk and plug in.

The best part is, none of these items need to cost more than $100. Most are closer to $50. So you can solve everything with an investment of perhaps $200-300.

Re: The tyranny of chairs: why we need better design

#70
post #60

If anyone is looking for a better chair, we found this was a great time to pick up Herman Miller Aerons off of craigslist. There's a steady stream of small-to-medium offices in our area closing, and they're all liquidating office furniture. We picked up 2 for $500. They're a massive improvement over my $80 chair that was fine for a few hours a week pre-WFH, and my back is feeling much better.

I found my Aeron chair triggered my lower back pain. Since then I’ve moved to mostly using a standing mat and standing up as well as strengthening my core. I might try sitting on my Aeron chair after a few months of core strengthening

I get some insane neck pain with these. Found I work better altering between standing and using a normal wooden chair. Not amazing sounding but it works for me.
Post reply on HN