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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#641

Post by risyachka »

weixiyen wrote: post #529
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

> not getting the special treatment they want They are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for the courts to curtail Apple's absolute power over how applications can be installed on an operating system designed for general computing. That would be a game changer for the entire developer ecosystem. Whether that's good or bad is another debate, but the industry-shifting impact it could have is undeniable.

It is not an abuse of power when you created a phone many years ago, and when it was way less popular you told everyone beforehand that it will be impossible on install random software, only though store.

It is called a built-in feature and iPhones were designed with it from the very start.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#642

Post by alexashka »

nodamage wrote: post #630
gnopgnip wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like in Amazon sold a fridge and said you can only shop at Whole Foods. Epic wants users to be able to shop at stores other than Whole Foods, not to be carried at that store without a markup

The remedy in this scenario is to simply not buy Amazon fridges, not have the government step in and force Amazon to change its fridges. Legal intervention should not occur unless Amazon was the only fridge seller in the world.

You've described a monopoly. Please google duopoly now.

Also feel free to familiarize yourself with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

By your logic, companies should be able to price fix and collude in any way they see fit because it's more than one company. Facepalm.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#643

Post by zemo »

librish wrote: post #160

Can someone who's on Apple's side here elaborate on why they think the outcome for consumers would be worse if they're forced to loosen some of their restrictions? It's very unlikely that app developers choose to forgo the AppStore since it will be driving the majority of app installs even in a completely open world for years to come. And if they do choose to forgo that distribution channel that should be seen as a v…

the setup to your question is flawed, since you're starting from the perspective that someone should be on one side or the other. Epic is suing on multiple points, and there are probably very few people that agree with Epic on every point.

iOS is widely regarded as being the safest consumer OS in widespread usage on the market today. Much of that is because of the restrictions that apple places on developers ability to install arbitrary code on the user's device. Epic is suing for the ability to create an app store that would allow third-party developers to install arbitrary binaries on iOS devices without oversight from Apple.

that level of restriction is a part of the product. It's what people are paying for when they buy an iOS device. People actually want that. And there's no reason why there shouldn't be an option for consumers to pick a locked-down platform. Many developers are hostile to users, and many users consciously want a device that makes that hostility harder for developers.

The 30% take that Apple charges is steep and is replicated by basically all other vendors, so I'd be happy to see that reduced since it improves all ecosystems. But the app approval process and the single app store ecosystem is a thing that I think differentiates iOS, and I wouldn't want to see that changed.

fwiw, I have an Android phone, which I picked because I wanted to use Daydream. I never really use that, so my next phone will probably be an iPhone.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#644

Post by _qulr »

systemvoltage wrote: post #404
cnst wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually happy Apple didn't make a small concession. I can't quite have the resources to sue Apple by myself as a small user being prevented from using the device I have paid for the way I see fit. I'm very glad that EPIC is doing it on my behalf. I'm also kind of glad that Apple didn't simply cut a backroom deal with EPIC, but is instead going the full-monty on this.

I share a different view on this. I want Apple to have as much control over as they can to keep my device safe. Obviously, this is an unpopular opinion on HN - part of me wants it super hackable and open source (my hacker self), but my average joe self wants is as tied down, closed doors as possible to avoid sniffing off my personal data, usage patterns, cookies, and a whole bunch of "soft metrics" about my device to…

> Apple acts on my behalf as a security officer - they have no interest in selling me ads

Search Ads. Every search result in the App Store has a big ad above it with an app you weren't searching for.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#645

Post by whalabi »

veilrap wrote: post #601
Aeolun wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I bought a $1000 device, but somehow Apple gets to decide what I run on it? I just cannot see how that is a desireable situation.

I bought a $1000 device because Apple gets to decide what can run on it. I like iOS, and I like that Apple provides a great user experience on the device. I was not in any way coerced into buying said device, and there are a plethora of other options for substitute devices had I wanted more control of what runs on the device, which I do not.

Hypothetically speaking, what would you see as the downside of Apple allowing users to install alternate app stores?

Presumably almost every user would just use Apple's app store and be satisfied with that, but for everyone else they'd be able to use their iPhone with much more freedom.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#646

Post by mullingitover »

weixiyen wrote: post #529
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

> not getting the special treatment they want They are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for the courts to curtail Apple's absolute power over how applications can be installed on an operating system designed for general computing. That would be a game changer for the entire developer ecosystem. Whether that's good or bad is another debate, but the industry-shifting impact it could have is undeniable.

> on an operating system designed for general computing

Apple could easily make the case that the platform was never designed for general computing. It was never an open platform, and what Epic is asking is for the government to 'compel speech' from Apple in the form of changes to their product in order to make it one.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#647

Post by risyachka »

akira2501 wrote: post #298
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

> No matter what opinion one holds on mobile store rules, they are their rules and so far you have the choice of following them (which is also somewhat iffy) or not being on the store. A valid opinion is that those rules are illegal under current federal statue. Another one is that although they currently aren't, they should be. > Separate the issues and angles and see it for what it is: just a bunch of legal departm…

> A valid opinion is that those rules are illegal under current federal statue. Another one is that although they currently aren't, they should be.

If you think about it it's not really valid.

Retailers take a big cut of the price to sell your product and its legal.

The rules were defined many years ago, and its a free world - don't like it - don't buy it.

Why would it be illegal?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#648

Post by woliveirajr »

mcphage wrote: post #586
Aeolun wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I bought a $1000 device, but somehow Apple gets to decide what I run on it? I just cannot see how that is a desireable situation.

It's true for every video game console, which have run to up to $600. I'm not sure if $400 makes that much of a difference.

there were a time when game consoles were just a hardware that would run any cartridge that you inserted.

restricting what could run in it is recent.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#649

Post by RonanTheGrey »

d3nj4l wrote: post #633
nodamage wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the only available counterweight for their behaviour "drop everything and buy a new $500 phone to express your discontent?" No. The counterweight is not buying an iPhone in the first place if side loading is important to you.

That does not fix the problem for content creators , who have to target the nearly 50% of the US market that's on iOS. I'm sure everyone at Basecamp would prefer to use androids, but they just can't be competitive with other e-mail services without releasing the Hey app for iOS.

This is part of the problem; there are entire industries now that rely on mobile device deployment. It would be untenable and unreasonable to say "hey you don't like it, F off, just don't deploy on iOS, you can always willingly give up access to over 1 billion users you know". It just doesn't even sound reasonable.

In those industries - mobile gaming is one, a $150 billion a year market reaching a whopping 50% of all mobile users across platforms, that requires presence on iOS if you want to build a business in any serious way.

This is where Apple is going to have a really, really hard time avoiding an accusation (and judgement) of antitrust. They literally control industries. This means that they probably have to give up some control of their platform.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#650

Post by RonanTheGrey »

nuker wrote: post #588
gnopgnip wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like in Amazon sold a fridge and said you can only shop at Whole Foods. Epic wants users to be able to shop at stores other than Whole Foods, not to be carried at that store without a markup

> This is like in Amazon sold a fridge and said you can only shop at Whole Foods. So why would anyone buy such fridge? And if they do, there clearly are other benefits, which you omitted.

My wife is absolutely obsessed with getting the latest iPhone when her current device (Android) either breaks or otherwise stops being useful. Her reason? "It's the best phone". Why? "Because it's super expensive". Why? "I don't know everyone says it's the best phone."

It would surprise me if any conversation about why to buy an iPhone ever went deeper than that, 99.99999% of the time. The HN crowd is absolutely an exception to the typical buyer.

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