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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#371

Post by nvrspyx »

nodamage wrote: post #277
leptoniscool wrote: post #24

Apple is a monopoly. When Microsoft was investigated and fined for anti-trust behaviors, it hasn't engaged in this level of abuse.

I am not sure why this fallacy continues to be repeated in every Apple thread. Apple currently has 46% US market share [1] and 14% global market share [2]. This is far from monopoly power. By contrast, Microsoft had 95% market share during their antitrust suit. [3] [1] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh... [2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share... [3] https://schola…

First, these statistics are for phones shipped, not current active users of said phones. It's well known that iPhone users tend to hold on to their phone for longer before upgrading compared to Android users, who often switch phones much earlier. You need to look at operating-system market share based on active users(e.g. web tracking), not "who upgraded their phone this quarter". In that regard, Apple has over 56% market share in the US and over 24% market share globally [1].

Secondly, the fallacy here is that people, like yourself, keep conflating the smartphone manufacturing or operating system markets with the individual software markets that developed around each platform. Mac software doesn't "compete" with Windows software because people tend to have one device or the other. That software is what makes the platforms themselves competitive between each other, yes, but the actual software industry that's dependent on them is not competitive across those platforms. They are competing with apps within their particular platform, including the purveyors they have to go through (e.g. Apple and Google). You wouldn't say that the Bear notes app on iOS is competing with the Scarlet Notes app on Android because they're in different markets. Instead, Bear is competing with Apple Notes. Even if we are to go by your 14%, that's 14% of 3.5 billion people. IMO, that's such a large amount that it should be considered it's own market, but that has to be determined by a court.

No one is arguing "monopoly" of mobile smartphones here. They're arguing a monopoly specifically of iOS software distribution. The Microsoft case wasn't in relation to other web browser developers, but of other operating systems and of manufacturers because they leveraged their market share to illegally maintain their monopoly in that regard. Their monopoly was their monopoly of the Windows operating system, not the Internet Explorer web browser. What's being argued here is that Apple is leveraging their power, or distribution monopoly, over the entire iOS software market, not "smartphone" software in general, to gatekeep competition of software and software distribution while also profiting from that gatekeeping.

This is going to come down to how a court interprets this because antitrust isn't as cut and dry as other areas of law, especially now that individual markets are not so easily distinguishable in the current tech world.

[1]: https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#372

Post by jussij »

jacquesm wrote: post #309
shajznnckfke wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently, Epic’s existing users on iOS are able to make in-app purchases without paying Apple’s 30% fee, which is literally saving them an expense. They are better off than before. Epic being blocked from issuing updates may eventually make them worse off (and it makes prospective new users worse off).

No, not the users. It's Epic not paying Apple's 30% cut. You have that backwards.

That 30% is a cost to Epic and that cost has to be paid by someone.

Just like any other cost, more often than not these costs are just passed on to the customer.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#373

Post by tomc1985 »

lr4444lr wrote: post #355
dang wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stub comment to collect the replies so we can collapse them, to prevent offtopicness. Sorry, no-JS users.

I agree, but I think the downvoting provides all of the corrective feedback your target audience needs to learn this.

I'm not so sure about that. Downvotes are as much an indicator of outspokenness as they are that one's post is repugnant. Unfortunately lots of people love to downvote posts they do not agree with, or don't support their chosen side

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#374

Post by chc »

n42 wrote: post #63
gameswithgo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people familiar with Tim Sweeny’s life and ideology know that it is an actual important issues to him that platforms be open. your cynical take is often very true but there are sometimes real human ideals behind things.

interesting, then, that he is solely responsible for introducing marketplace exclusivity deals to PC gaming.

This is a preposterous claim that requires a lot of revision to be even close to true. Marketplace owners have been using their own games' exclusivity to push their platforms since Steam's introduction. Even just talking about third-party exclusives (which IMO is an arbitrary distinction — they're just as exclusive and for the same reasons), Valve paid for third-party exclusives early in Steam's history. Once they got rich enough, they started just buying companies outright when they wanted exclusivity on a game somebody was making, which is a much stronger exclusivity deal than the relatively tepid "the game comes out a few months earlier on our store" deals Epic is best known for.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#375

Post by jayd16 »

scarface74 wrote: post #220
jayd16 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does ban apps that replace built in functionality.

That is a provably false claim. Podcasts - Overcast, PocketCasts, etccc Music - Spotify, Rhapsody, Amazon Music Books - Kindle. Maps - Google Maps Mail - Gmail, Yahoo Mail ...

Its not that they do it in all cases. Neither did Microsoft.

Here's an article that goes over some of it (although it oversells Apple's first party advantage I think)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/05/how-app...

Apple also has a no Copy-Cats guideline that has been used to push out some apps, although maybe its not wide spread enough to be a concern.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#376

Post by Gene_Parmesan »

gowld wrote: post #356
akira2501 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No matter what opinion one holds on mobile store rules, they are their rules and so far you have the choice of following them (which is also somewhat iffy) or not being on the store. A valid opinion is that those rules are illegal under current federal statue. Another one is that although they currently aren't, they should be. > Separate the issues and angles and see it for what it is: just a bunch of legal departm…

> Yes, but the only reason they get to adjudicate it in tax payer funded courts is precisely _because_ the decision will have a major impact on consumers and developers as as whole. That's not right. Civil tort suits are for any citizens to seek justice for themselves.

Tort reform is a travesty, for sure, but I'm not sure it's a relevant point to make here.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#377

Post by rumanator »

delhanty wrote: post #334
dang wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stub comment to collect the replies so we can collapse them, to prevent offtopicness. Sorry, no-JS users.

Unfortunately, supporting a brand as team sports is a thing like supporting a political party as team sports is. HN is, hopefully, better than most places on the internet as there are lots of people willing to decide each issue on its merits, and also recalibrate their positions continually in the light of events,

> Unfortunately, supporting a brand as team sports is a thing like supporting a political party as team sports is.

My take is the exact opposite: this episode is an opportunity to air grievances regarding each company, which by themselves have amassed a bunch of reasons for customers and end users to dislike them. There are no good guys in this story, only bad guys whose evilness outstages the other's evilness.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#378

Post by doggydogs94 »

amelius wrote: post #143
bitxbit wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think they are acting to the level of MSFT in the 90s. What MSFT did would be equivalent to Apple forcing everyone to use its apps and not allow any competing apps. Also recall that Jobs was pretty adamant about allowing third-party apps in the beginning. Now, do I think 30% is ridiculous in 2020? Yes. But it made sense a decade ago when having a half decent working app almos…

But where is the equivalent of the browser-ballot screen? [1] Why don't we apply the same principle to the App store? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu

There is nothing stopping you from building any open source app with xCode and deploying it to your iPhone.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#380

Post by paxys »

microtherion wrote: post #333
Gwypaas wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference would be that the same iPhone has access to Taylor Swift through Spotify, Apple Music, Play Music (does that even exist anymore?) and so on. Put the app store on the same level of competition and level the playing field of Spotify vs Apple Music in regards to the 30% subscription fee.

There are multiple streaming services, but most people won't pay for multiple services, so there is a lock in effect. And Spotify has a higher market share in music streaming than Apple has in cell phones.

Switching my $10/month payment from Spotify to iTunes is negligible compared to replacing a $700+ smartphone (which is likely on a payment plan). And in the latter case I lose access to every single app I have paid for over a decade.
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