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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#261

Post by abc-xyz »

user5994461 wrote: post #114
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Epic Games doesn't get it's way will China give Apple the boot? Are we watching a cold war unfold in front of our eyes?

Highly unlikely, the iPhone is very common and a major status symbol in China. People making up the government are not gonna ban their phones (or their son's and daughter's iPhones, considering the 70 year old politicians might not be strong users of smartphone themselves).

They might if Apple is forced to ban WeChat and other Chinese apps from the App Store worldwide (which is why Tencent/CCP is having all these proxy wars targeting Apple, with the sole purpose of making it possible to side-load apps so that Trump’s executive orders will hurt Tencent/Bytedance (and future Chinese companies) a lot less). The timing of 40% Tencent-owned Epic Games’ PR lawsuit is no coincidence.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#262

Post by thrwn_frthr_awy »

yyyk wrote: post #80
hnarayanan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what metric is Apple a monopoly?

It's irrelevant whether Apple are technically a monopoly or not; Apple abuses their iOS market power to force vendors to use their payment system.

How should Apple get paid for a free app that has it's own payment system? Apple created a phone, IDE, language and entire ecosystem and from day 1 has charged 30%. They have not increased that as their marketshare increased. Should Apple be forced to allow an app to be released free and then accept payments outside of Apple?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#263

Post by sydd »

laumars wrote: post #205
chrisco255 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately if Apple bends if will be good for the users in the long run. That's what matters. And if Apple doesn't bend, we need antitrust action against these monopolies anyways.

People keep making this argument regarding the App Store but that’s not how monopolies are defined. Apple might have strict control over their walled garden but their walled garden itself isn’t the only walled garden. As such, people can buy different handsets running different operating systems and thus use a different repository on them. The fact that Apple don’t allow other repos on iOS doesn’t make it a monopoly…

The current situation is called a duopoly. There are 2 walled gardens with approximately 50-50% revenue share in the developed world. One makes it almost impossible to distribute your own app on these, the other makes it just very hard. Both should be broken up, it's a bleak distopia that 2 companies headquartered a few miles from eachother decide who can publish software on mobile devices.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#264

Post by sjy »

TheNorthman wrote: post #27
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony here is that PUBG is made with the Unreal Engine, which they're being forced by a judge not to cut off from their platform, and Epic still gets 5% of all revenue from PUBG.

They're not being forced to do anything, it's a temporary injunction, i.e. just a remedy. What's noteworthy here is that it's not a preliminary injunction, meaning that Apple might not even have had the chance to defend themselves in court yet.

Apple had the chance to write and file this 34-page response to the application (which partially succeeded). https://regmedia.co.uk/2020/08/21/appleepic.pdf

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#265

Post by SXX »

stock_toaster wrote: post #151
gameswithgo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people familiar with Tim Sweeny’s life and ideology know that it is an actual important issues to him that platforms be open. your cynical take is often very true but there are sometimes real human ideals behind things.

> people familiar with Tim Sweeny’s life and ideology know that it is an actual important issues to him that platforms be open. I get that, but I admit to finding it hard to square with his statements[1] that he is fine with game consoles not being open. Seems a strange dichotomy. [1]: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oglnAi...

I really not going to be surprised that in case Epic manage to win over Apple they'll put pressure on console manufacturers next.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#266

Post by danbolt »

gameswithgo wrote: post #38
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

people familiar with Tim Sweeny’s life and ideology know that it is an actual important issues to him that platforms be open. your cynical take is often very true but there are sometimes real human ideals behind things.

I feel like his standards for openness are always up to where Epic's business model is a best fit. I've never heard him suggest something like letting me run my own Fortnite server or something of the sort.

That said, you're right that he's consistent with these views, especially how he was against UWP during its heyday. [1]

[1] https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-03-04-tim-sweene...

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#267

Post by AnthonyMouse »

coliveira wrote: post #231
013a wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its really important the narrative stays clear concerning this: Its never been about users having choice (because users do have choice): Its about Developers not having a choice. Refusing to release an iOS app for your web application/game/etc is generally a death sentence, so much so that oftentimes you see new services release as "Get it on the iOS app store, Android coming soon."

I don't think this line of argument would fly, because developers have actually a choice in developing for Android. If they don't make as much money that is not Google or Apple's fault. What I think is an argument against Apple is that users want to have access to apps that Apple doesn't want to release on its store. In that case, they may be forced to relax their rules on the Appstore.

> I don't think this line of argument would fly, because developers have actually a choice in developing for Android.

This is much like saying that having a monopoly on retail stores in California isn't a problem because producers can just sell their product in New York. Obviously that doesn't allow them to reach the same customers. They aren't alternatives to each other because you need both to reach your entire customer base. Compare to Walmart where if you don't sell through them, the exact same customers can easily walk across the street and buy your product at Target.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#268

Post by Touche »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #219
Touche wrote: post #170

IANAL and I cannot judge the legal merits of this case. I did read Apple's response though and I found the argument not a compelling justification for their practices. A big part of their response is to justify the need for the 30% as a mechanism to recoup costs. That sounds perfectly reasonable until you realize that Epic is not allowed to recoup its own costs for the higher App Store cost by increasing their produc…

> Epic is not allowed to recoup its own costs for the higher App Store cost by increasing their product cost by 30% What are you talking about? Epic can price their product however they want. Why do you think Youtube Premium costs more on iOS than on any other platform?

Did they change this? They used to disallow charging more on iOS.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#269

Post by gpm »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #122
yyyk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's irrelevant whether Apple are technically a monopoly or not; Apple abuses their iOS market power to force vendors to use their payment system.

Not being sarcastic, and I'm misunderstanding what you mean: how can Apple abuse their market power over something they alone created?

Very broadly speaking it's perfectly legal to have a monopoly on something, and Apple has a monopoly on the thing they created, and that's fine.

It's generally illegal to use a monopoly on one thing to acquire a monopoly on another thing when that harms society, and that is the claim here.

Microsoft alone created windows, that's fine. Microsoft used their monopoly on windows to gain monopolies on other pieces of software, and that was problematic.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#270

Post by AnthonyMouse »

thrwn_frthr_awy wrote: post #262
yyyk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's irrelevant whether Apple are technically a monopoly or not; Apple abuses their iOS market power to force vendors to use their payment system.

How should Apple get paid for a free app that has it's own payment system? Apple created a phone, IDE, language and entire ecosystem and from day 1 has charged 30%. They have not increased that as their marketshare increased. Should Apple be forced to allow an app to be released free and then accept payments outside of Apple?

Why shouldn't they? They got paid when the customer bought the phone. If the "free" app is handling payment processing and distribution itself, what is Apple doing that justifies receiving any money at all?
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