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Zoom still don't understand GDPR

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Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#131

Post by _Microft »

dheera wrote: post #119
irjustin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any company that has an operating entity in an EU country must comply or risk being fined by regulators. If the target is big enough, EU regulators will ask for help from other countries. Zoom operates offices in a few EU countries[0] so they'll definitely have some sort of entity(ies) setup - regulation pressure can be applied. [0] https://zoom.us/contact

You're right, I checked and Zoom does have offices in Paris and Amsterdam. I suppose then they have the choice of doing Google's playbook in China and just close their EU offices if they wanted, instead of complying. I mean, China wanting censorship and EU wanting GDPR aren't any different. Without arguing for or against either, China's censorship and GDPR are both local laws and foreign-based companies with no local…

> they can't tell me what to do if I haven't set foot in their jurisdiction.

By accepting customers from the EU you are setting a foot here albeit economically and not physically. You are free to not serve european costumers if you do not want to deal with the GDPR.

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#132

Post by a13n »

laurent92 wrote: post #128

Why do you guys not use https://whereby.com (formerly appear.in), it’s free for 4 people, in-browser only, no-login, WebRTC, allows sharing the screen alongside faces. But they made the 5+ rooms $9 per month, which is way too expensive. There are not enough competitors for WebRTC conf tools, it should be quite simple and $4-5 a month (WebRTC doesn’t incur data costs on the servers since the data is peer-to-peer).

We used them for a while but the quality just isn’t nearly as stable as zoom.

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#133

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

laurent92 wrote: post #128

Why do you guys not use https://whereby.com (formerly appear.in), it’s free for 4 people, in-browser only, no-login, WebRTC, allows sharing the screen alongside faces. But they made the 5+ rooms $9 per month, which is way too expensive. There are not enough competitors for WebRTC conf tools, it should be quite simple and $4-5 a month (WebRTC doesn’t incur data costs on the servers since the data is peer-to-peer).

Maybe it's no-login, but in order to try it you need to register.

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#134

Post by TeMPOraL »

clusterfish wrote: post #107
strictnein wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Poor engineering culture" The software and service is currently running at a scale that the vast majority of visitors to HN can barely dream of achieving. But yeah, they prioritized ease of install for the client of their software over other considerations, so that must mean they have a "poor engineering culture", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Profitable business culture, poor engineering culture. Happens all the time in companies of all sizes.

In other words: a) malice, and b) a business problem, not a tech problem.

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#135

Post by TeMPOraL »

qppo wrote: post #11
saagarjha wrote: post #3

C'mon, what does it take for Zoom to understand that when people uninstall software they don't want parts of it to stick around forever?

Usually this happens because the person who wrote the file or daemon didn't write the uninstaller and no one gives a hoot about it at review. Never assume malice that which can be explained by a poor engineering culture

Except we're talking about a company that continuously employs dark patterns in their product and is generally considered a security threat in many countries. It's quite plausible to assume malice here, given previous examples of it (dark patterns are malicious by design and intent).

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#137

Post by TeMPOraL »

nostoc wrote: post #65
banana_giraffe wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, it's a SQLite database. It's not like it's hard to check this behavior, or instrument the database file to see exactly what it's doing. It was really odd they didn't bother. https://imgur.com/a/jBaW7RL

What tools would you use to instrument a sqlite file in order to monitor reads?

When Julia Evans wanted to learn what SQLite does, she just stuffed some printf calls into the code and rebuilt it :).

https://jvns.ca/blog/2014/09/27/how-does-sqlite-work-part-1-...

You could do similar at API entry points.

Or, if you're after writes, it would be simpler to attach an "on insert/update" trigger that just records the changes in another table. See https://www.sqlite.org/undoredo.html for an example of using triggers this way.

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#138

Post by buzer »

laurent92 wrote: post #128

Why do you guys not use https://whereby.com (formerly appear.in), it’s free for 4 people, in-browser only, no-login, WebRTC, allows sharing the screen alongside faces. But they made the 5+ rooms $9 per month, which is way too expensive. There are not enough competitors for WebRTC conf tools, it should be quite simple and $4-5 a month (WebRTC doesn’t incur data costs on the servers since the data is peer-to-peer).

> WebRTC doesn’t incur data costs on the servers since the data is peer-to-peer

There are probably some operators that do pure p2p, but vast majority use some kind of bridge past certain number of users (& TURN might also be used for p2p). Usually this is to limit the amount of bandwidth participant needs.

Another alternatives are https://meet.jit.si & https://8x8.vc/. I cannot remember what was the current limit of participants in Jitsi (it was 75 back in June), but on 8x8.vc it's 100. In cases where you simply need a lot of viewers and limited number of participants there is also an option to livestream to Youtube.

(Disclaimer: I work at 8x8, but not directly on Meet or Jitsi)

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#139

Post by bllguo »

kelnos wrote: post #84
turblety wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this was so sad, but I'm happy the guys that made it got paid. Even they would have known this was the end for Keybase. Hopefully when their non-compete clauses end the developers will make another product the same.

> Yeah this was so sad, but I'm happy the guys that made it got paid. I don't really sympathize with this. You build something, get a ton of people to use it, advocate for it, get their friends to use it... I think after that, you have a responsibility to those users, and selling to a company like Zoom and then peaceing out on further work does not fulfill that responsibility.

I couldn't disagree more. Most users didn't even pay, for goodness' sake.

Re: Zoom still don't understand GDPR

#140

Post by pacamara619 »

dheera wrote: post #97
irjustin wrote: post #39

I argue Zoom does understand GDPR and the ePrivacy Directive from a legal perspective. The specific citation about the length of a cookie is a recommendation and not a law[0]. The key word is 'should'. I'm not a lawyer nor claim the ability to interpret GDPR legally, but I have seen companies that actively worked to edge case GDPR to their advantage (I was part of one). We would have lawyers and other 'GDPR experts'…

I imagine GDPR doesn't apply to Zoom, as a non-EU company. Much like China bans what it doesn't want, the onus is on the EU to set up a GFW of their own and ban Zoom (and other GDPR-non-compliant foreign websites) if they disagree with it. Otherwise, Zoom only needs to obey the laws of USA and wherever else they have offices. Disclaimer: IANAL Also: I'm not arguing for Zoom's sketchy practices but just saying that GD…

There's no need to ban Zoom itself. Just stop all money from the EU going to Zoom's accounts.
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