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Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

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Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#241

Post by grugagag »

ghostwriter wrote: post #238
fqye wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.

what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?

China wouldn’t allow that kind of evidence: direct footage of people being psychologically and even physically tortured, proof of organ harvesting, etc. That’s like evidence that is very hard to obtain having how tight a grip China has, but there are leaks from time to time. Once again if China had nothing to hide and reporting was allowed we wouldn’t be having this conversation

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#242

Post by fqye »

grugagag wrote: post #240
fqye wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.

Ok, theres some progress to accept that. Sure not everything is accurate when things get reported and I don’t doubt sometimes mistakes are made. Successive takes usually filter out the chaff. If China allowed reporters and had nothing to hide we wouldn’t be discussing right now. This report may be questionable from your point of view but it’s all we’ve got for now.. And this report doesn’t look like the WMD in Iraq p…

You missed my point. I am not questioning the images.

> If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#243

Post by grogenaut »

systemvoltage wrote: post #228
aluminum96 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly remarkable how many replies in that thread consist of bad analogies, denials of clear third party reporting, and whatabout-ism.

Same thing happens here btw on HN. Since I just said something against HN, I guarantee this comment will get downvoted into oblivion.

generally downvoting happens when you talk about voting in the meta, which is against the rules and spirit.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#244

Post by fqye »

ghostwriter wrote: post #238
fqye wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.

what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?

images or videos of families confined in a camp, children, women and old men / women from reliable source.

When we talk about concentration camp, it is always about large number of families.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#245

Post by ngcc_hk »

jandrese wrote: post #193
mzs wrote: post #128

Journalist's thread that explains a bit more of how they did this: https://twitter.com/alisonkilling/status/1298933918620672000 edit: was used in creating this two part story: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/meghara/china-new-inter...

China's social media army is out in force on that Twitter thread. Deflect, Deny, Discredit.

That is why USA or the west world is losing if we believed social media has a key role in shaping opinion. You cannot go it and they can come out. And even chinese coming out with their wechat would be closed.

I am not hopeful. Whilst I believe the ccp might go, it is that asymmetric thing which is a problem.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#246

Post by Akababa »

walrus01 wrote: post #158
abj wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Individuals cannot accept interviews without government approval." [12:06] Does anyone know if this is a law?

Foreign journalists cannot even enter xinjiang and travel around freely without 24x7 accompaniment by a government employee escort.

If true, that's uncannily reminiscent of North Korea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inebLA3HqPo

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#247

Post by canadaduane »

partiallypro wrote: post #229
Miner49er wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are skeptical, because a lot of the people talking about these camps clearly don't care about the people in them. They only care about making China look bad. Many politicians in the US are using this as an example of why China is bad, while simultaneously pushing for similar here with our prison system or with ICE. Plus, even if they aren't being hypocrital, it is in the United States' interest to make…

There is definitely a distinction between immigration policy of people coming into your country vs rounding up your own citizens. So, we now just have to believe everything China says because the US isn't perfect? Germany and many European countries have camps for refugees from the Syrian war, but that's not even remotely the same as taking your own citizens into camps and harvesting their organs, hair, etc. Not even…

I think there's quite a leap from "people are being skeptical" to "we now just have to believe everything China says".

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#248

Post by [deleted] »

Hizonner wrote: post #126
FooBarWidget wrote: post #68

There are various levels of reporting in about what's happening in Xinjiang. I'm curious which ones of the following people here on HN believe are true. A. There is forced re-education, forced de-radicalization, and forced political assimilation (to fight separatism). Some camps are indeed for voluntary vocational education, others are for forced re-education. The number of people who are forced into camps, are a lot…

Too simplistic. Based on the generally available reports, and based on prior probabilities given the way this stuff has tended to work all over the world, I tentatively believe something close to this: There is forced re-education, forced de-radicalization, and forced political (and cultural) assimilation. One major motivation is probably to fight a (largely illusory) danger of widespread separatist violence. In fact…

[deleted]

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#249

Post by free_rms »

Hizonner wrote: post #126
FooBarWidget wrote: post #68

There are various levels of reporting in about what's happening in Xinjiang. I'm curious which ones of the following people here on HN believe are true. A. There is forced re-education, forced de-radicalization, and forced political assimilation (to fight separatism). Some camps are indeed for voluntary vocational education, others are for forced re-education. The number of people who are forced into camps, are a lot…

Too simplistic. Based on the generally available reports, and based on prior probabilities given the way this stuff has tended to work all over the world, I tentatively believe something close to this: There is forced re-education, forced de-radicalization, and forced political (and cultural) assimilation. One major motivation is probably to fight a (largely illusory) danger of widespread separatist violence. In fact…

This is the best post on this topic that has ever been written on Hacker News.

Only nitpick (after a bunch of brilliant conjecture that basically 'scans' as far as human behavior, chinese society, and Xi's inclinations): The cultural revolution was completely out of control once unleashed -- this seems much more 'regular' as far as how it's being administered.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#250

Post by askmike »

bgee wrote: post #160
thoughtstheseus wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure about giving but you need a license/approval before you can interview someone. Many western youtubers came under scrutiny for it.

> you need a license/approval before you can interview someone [citation needed] > Many western youtubers came under scrutiny for it. came under scrutiny by whom? Their audience or CCP? Disclaimer: I'm a China national.

> > you need a license/approval before you can interview someone

> [citation needed]

So it was stated by a police officer in the video above (I'm assuming it was a real police encounter and not staged, and that the subtitles are correct as he didn't say it in English).

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