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Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

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Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#231

Post by grugagag »

fqye wrote: post #217
warbaker wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you can equate these two. Iraq invasion was driven by faulty intelligence gathered in secret by a spy organization. Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence.

> Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence. The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.

You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#232

Post by fakedang »

mschuster91 wrote: post #69
adventured wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would have very little effect, which is why it's not a primary threat now. Despite China's aims, their tech giants have made little headway in pushing their core businesses far outside of China. Huawei is the primary success story in that regard (the US has obviously been aggressively targeting them across the board). Baidu was supposed to conquer the world and defeat Google, it failed miserably and is largely jus…

> cut them out of the global system; that requires a widespread effort from the top several dozen economies, it can be done however. The problem is that many of the world's economies already depend on China - either as a source of cheap products or, and that is an increasingly successful threat, for money. China has been buying up, building or financing construction works especially in South Europe (Italy, Greece, Cr…

In the event of conflict, there's nothing stopping those countries from seizing Chinese assets in their countries. Heck, the US did that with Merck KgaA and Merck Inc during WW2.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#233

Post by free_rms »

James_Henry wrote: post #230
free_rms wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the reporting just indicates buildings exist. I'm not sure what to believe, lots of things are in range given the evidence, but I don't take "look, a building" to mean much of anything.

Some of the buildings are very clearly used as detention centers. They've been confirmed by journalists, for instance. Not all are proven to be camps and just look like they could be. (I don't know why China would need so many guarded prison looking areas with thick concrete walls, but I'm sure someone could come up with a reason.) I was talking about the other two articles by Buzzfeed. They interviewed quite a few p…

I agree with your facts there, although "sinicize Islam" sounds awfully grand?

In context with Western countries' reactions to militant islam, it's very different, different cultural norms, but it's hard to call it comparatively monstrous.

What if it works? What we're doing in afghanistan clearly isn't working, despite the humanitarian cost..

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#234

Post by fakedang »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #97
throwaway69123 wrote: post #25

How as a consumer do I avoid the moral dread of buying made in China when 99% of everything is made in China.

I'd suggest that this is less black versus white than it appears. In buying products made in China, you're helping to raise a huge number of people out of crushing poverty. I've traveled through China across 25 years, and seen how their lives have improved, yet some are still trying to eke out subsistence, farming what looked like a 1-acre plot with an ox. Yes, the CCP is evil. But the moral calculus is never simple,…

We're funding the upliftment of Chinese citizens, at the cost of the millions of unemployed in our own home countries. And that according to you is still a good thing?

I'm a firm believer in free trade and all that, as long as trade partners are of the same ideological bend, even if flawed. Not the country that's actively looking to rivalldestabilize every other Western democracy through backroom dealings.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#235

Post by grugagag »

jandrese wrote: post #198
aminecodes wrote: post #17

The least the EU and US could do is sanction and ban Baidu and other Chinese tech companies responsible for covering up this genocide.

In international politics nobody cares too much as long as you are only killing your own people. No country wants to go to war to save some other country's citizens. Hitler could have finished the Holocaust with little more than an international slap on the wrist if he hadn't also invaded France and Russia.

While I get your point business is more important for many countries and going to war for repressed citizens is rare, I think this is a stain that won’t go away and might prove a mistake in the long run. Sure, nobody will go to war with China for this but the Chinese have a huge liability on their hands and might have to pay reparations at some point

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#236

Post by grugagag »

thefounder wrote: post #190
aminecodes wrote: post #17

The least the EU and US could do is sanction and ban Baidu and other Chinese tech companies responsible for covering up this genocide.

US could stop putting mexican kids in cages and treat them like garbage. That would be a start towards rehabilitation.

Yes they should stop doing that, our country has an unbearable president (Trump) right now but, that doesn’t excuse China from anything and it is also way worse in scale and intensity and done directly against their own citizens who have a different religion.

The thing is that here in the US nearly half of the citizens are opposed. In China nobody gives a damn, they don’t know and don’t care. Big difference!!

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#237

Post by fqye »

grugagag wrote: post #231
fqye wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here, we have millions of eye witnesses and tons of corroborating evidence. The fact that this report is up to questioning shows that it isn't true. If you read this report thoroughly, you can find out it just shows there are this sort of buildings in Xinjiang but no logic or proof that they are concentration camps and there is no evidence at least in the report that the buildings are in use.

You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!

There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water.

The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now.

Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#238

Post by ghostwriter »

fqye wrote: post #237
grugagag wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!

There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.

what would be a "credible hard evidence" for you?

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#239

Post by FooBarWidget »

ardy42 wrote: post #154
FooBarWidget wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think he’s spreading propaganda. Ok, fine. But I have issue with you saying “that which is reported widely”, as if the other side is entirely honest and truthful. In reality, both sides are distributing propaganda. I fear that, although you are skeptical of Chinese propaganda, you fail to recognize or be skeptical of Western propaganda at the same time.

> But I have issue with you saying “that which is reported widely”, as if the other side is entirely honest and truthful. In reality, both sides are distributing propaganda. I fear that, although you are skeptical of Chinese propaganda, you fail to recognize or be skeptical of Western propaganda at the same time. You're making a false equivalence by oversimplifying things into symmetrical "sides." The Chinese state-o…

No I’m not making a false equivalence at all. I never said anything about whether the propaganda of sides are equal. I just said propaganda exists at both sides, implying that it’s up to you to decide in what quality/quantity they exist. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Re: Blanked-out spots on China's maps helped us uncover Xinjiang's camps

#240

Post by grugagag »

fqye wrote: post #237
grugagag wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re in denial. Your country is doing this, theres incontestable evidence already. At least take in the facts and say you don’t care or that it’s your country’s business what they do internally but keeping on denying it doesn’t do anything at this point. The cat’s out of the bag already!

There are lots of accusations against China's Xinjiang practice. They are all mixed together unintentionally or intentionally to mud the water. The accusation of concentration camp is exaggerated and there is no credible hard evidence. This report is highly questionable. That is my opinion and what we are debating now. Human right issues in Xinjiang? Yes. I am not questioning that.

Ok, theres some progress to accept that. Sure not everything is accurate when things get reported and I don’t doubt sometimes mistakes are made. Successive takes usually filter out the chaff. If China allowed reporters and had nothing to hide we wouldn’t be discussing right now. This report may be questionable from your point of view but it’s all we’ve got for now..

And this report doesn’t look like the WMD in Iraq provided by CIA based on the secret intelligence shtick. This is an open investigation and is still ongoing. As far as I can tell it is credible but we both have the right to our opinions

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