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When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

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Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#21

Post by hansvm »

sandworm101 wrote: post #15
aresant wrote: post #6

Build on this even in 1942, just prior to the discovery of the link to Mesothelioma, we were busily figuring out every use case we could for asbestos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC8L8ooBSgQ&t=1m8s Despite the recognition of Mesothelioma in the early 1900s it took almost 40 years to associate the disease with Asbestos. My understanding is that this was due to the 10 - 40 year average post exposure timeline for Me…

>> If Asbestos was discovered today... I don't think it would. Asbestos is a totally natural product. It would probably bypass many of our testing standards.

I don't like it, but I think I agree with you. Examples that come to mind include the use of copper sulphate as a more-or-less unregulated pesticide in organic farms, mutagenic breeding as the "safe and natural" alternative to gene splicing, and a whole host of other natural (and therefore obviously safe and beneficial) practices.

Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#22

Post by ReptileMan »

skellera wrote: post #11
aresant wrote: post #6

Build on this even in 1942, just prior to the discovery of the link to Mesothelioma, we were busily figuring out every use case we could for asbestos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC8L8ooBSgQ&t=1m8s Despite the recognition of Mesothelioma in the early 1900s it took almost 40 years to associate the disease with Asbestos. My understanding is that this was due to the 10 - 40 year average post exposure timeline for Me…

At least we think about it. The miracle material, graphene, has properties that could potentially cause problems when breathed in [0]. So at least we know what to look for and can mitigate. That said, who knows what other material might come about that causes problems 40 years later in a different way. We will learn when it comes but at least we’re starting to be more aware of potential problems. [0] https://www.mate…

If you really want to freak out - think xenoestrogens.

Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#25

Post by paulgerhardt »

PHGamer wrote: post #5

is asbestos really that bad? or is it the long term affects. if charlemagne just used it a show off thing in the diner would it have really mattered?

Yes, but in insidious ways. In the era of Charlemagne, many other things would have had significantly higher micromorts. As a dinner guest, I would have enjoyed the show rather than headed for the doors. At a dinner party today? No way.

According to the official CDC report which was used by the EPA to ban new uses of asbestos [1] the gist is that asbestos isn't a traditional poison. We measure most "poisons" in terms of Lethal Dose (LD50) or roughly paraphrased "how much of this would it take to kill 50% of subjects." We tend to think of something, like cyanide, as "very poisonous" if a small amount of something will kill you very quickly. But we measure lethality in other ways - "lethal concentration" (LC0 - whats the lowest concentration in air that has been observed to caused a fatality, LC50 at what concentration is 50% affected), lowest observed adverse affects level (will this mess you up like lead poisoning?), lethal time (LT0 - lowest amount of time observed to cause fatality, LT50 - time to cause fatality in 50% of population), and a host of others.

Asbestos doesn't have an observed LD50 (at least not in that report). No one has died within a few hours of inhaling asbestos like they would if, say, they ate Fugu pufferfish.

What it does have, is a very low LC0 and very long LT0 numbers. Only a little bit needs to get into your lungs, which unlike the pathway we observe in cigarettes, will stick around for a very long time, where it will eventually (on a long enough timeline) cause cancer. Exposure makes these numbers go up. 10% of asbestos mill workers die of mesothelioma, 2% of people who work with asbestos insulating boats and planes die of mesothelioma or related cancers - most within 5-20 years. If you're a smoker, the synergistic effects can further increase your risk of cancer by 90x(!). Other figures in other reports are a bit lower, but the panic was over the issue that there was no 'safe' dose of asbestos unlike with other toxins and no trivial environmental remediation.

I only gave it a scan; happy to be corrected by someone more informed on the subject.

[1] https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp61.pdf - since updated in 2001

Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#26

Post by jacquesm »

aresant wrote: post #6

Build on this even in 1942, just prior to the discovery of the link to Mesothelioma, we were busily figuring out every use case we could for asbestos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC8L8ooBSgQ&t=1m8s Despite the recognition of Mesothelioma in the early 1900s it took almost 40 years to associate the disease with Asbestos. My understanding is that this was due to the 10 - 40 year average post exposure timeline for Me…

There is some concern about carbon fiber and carbon nanotubes, they share some of the physical properties with asbestos fibers. So I do think that we would be on it pretty quickly but whether we would change course before the symptoms appeared is a different matter.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041008X1...

Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#27

Post by jacobwilliamroy »

sandworm101 wrote: post #4
liability wrote: post #2

I've heard this Charlemagne legend before but I'd love to see somebody put it to the test. I'm thinking the tablecloth would come out of the fire soiled with ash and bits of charcoal. I suppose it might still impress his guests but I don't think this party trick would work quite as well as the legend suggests. Also, 'Salamander Cotton' is a delightful name for asbestos.

Less a tablecloth, more a placemat. And it is doubtful it was thrown onto the fire, where it would probably put the fire mostly out, rather than thrown into the fireplace to hang on something over the fire. There are also translation issues from royal to plain speak. Royals like this rarely did physical things. When the king is observed to "throw" something, it is more likely that he had it thrown by a servant who th…

Like how Steve Jobs made the iPhone?

Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#28

Post by jacquesm »

sgt wrote: post #14
bjoli wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in a house with an asbestos facade. As long as you don't need to change anything it is even better than bricks. Easier to clean. Fire safe. Doesn't age much in 50 years. They used it everywhere: facade, insulation, floor glue. If it breaks however, the fibers go everywhere, especially to your lungs where they stay. People working with it died of all kinds of problems, but mostly cancer in the lungs iirc.

Also for asbestos roof - if it has been maintained and properly sealed once a decade or so, and is in good state, there is no reason to be worried. In that case it's actually much worse to remove it, and it is a great roofing material. However keep an eye on it if it shows signs of brittleness.

Exactly, it is the dust that is dangerous, not the bulk material. Avoid scratching, grinding, sanding, cutting, drilling and another kind of operation that turns some of the material into dust, especially airborne dust. Always wear a respirator when you have to work with it, always meticulously clean the area around it keep everybody (including pets!) out and if at all avoidable: simply don't touch it.

There are companies that specialize in asbestos removal and safe work on it, it is one of the things I check for very carefully when looking at real estate.

Finally, you find it in the most unexpected places. Floor coverings, roof coverings, liners, chimneys, stoves, ovens, as spray-on covering of steel beams and girders (and floor joists), the list if endless.

If you don't know what you're looking at in an older building and it's gray stop until you are 100% sure that it isn't asbestos.

Re: When Asbestos Was a Gift Fit for a King

#30

Post by saagarjha »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #27
sandworm101 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less a tablecloth, more a placemat. And it is doubtful it was thrown onto the fire, where it would probably put the fire mostly out, rather than thrown into the fireplace to hang on something over the fire. There are also translation issues from royal to plain speak. Royals like this rarely did physical things. When the king is observed to "throw" something, it is more likely that he had it thrown by a servant who th…

Like how Steve Jobs made the iPhone?

Legend has it that he threw a development team and a multitouch capacitive display in a fire and then pulled a fully built, finished iPhone from the flames.
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