How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images • Hacker News Board

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#311

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

jeroenhd wrote: post #189

aga98mtl wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps in the US, but other countries, even poor ones, manage to do rural internet fine without cluttering the night sky. Most of sub-saharan Africa has slow and expensive internet. I would guess there is 1 billion people who will have access to the internet via mobile tower with starlink & competitors backhaul in a few years. This is enormous.

The same countries also have nationalized internet service providers, often run by friends or family of the government. I doubt it'd be legal to sell StarLink receivers in large parts of the continent. There's nothing in the landscape that prevents Africa from running fiber to every house like Eastern Europe has been proven to be capable of. In fact, a lot of infrastructure is already there. Geopolitical instability,…

I doubt it'd be legal to sell StarLink receivers in large parts of the continent.

Has any nation ever successfully outlawed satellite reception? The roofs of buildings even in nations like Iran and KSA are studded with dishes.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#312

Post by mmaunder » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #300

mmaunder wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m afraid you will die on that hill and be replaced by a happy rural resident who was being abused by a local telco monopoly, but is now using competitively priced, fast, low latency satellite internet. Using keps and scrubbing exposures in post is something we could already do decades ago. It’ll just be a new part of the workflow and eventually the space NIMBYs will quiet down.

Spaceships and radio waves are cool and provide a unique solution. Let’s not pretend this was the one true way to get around Comcast et al’s stranglehold though. That problem could have been solved politically with regulation plus (in the countryside) ground based radio, or (in cities) with regulation of cable infrastructure such that it was separated from packet-routing and customer-service. If satellite ISPs genuin…

> That problem could have been solved politically...

No.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#313

Post by reitzensteinm » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #263

reitzensteinm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about being able to afford infrastructure. It's about population density in rural areas. North America and Australia (where I'm from) have the exact same issue. No country is going to spend a million bucks to lay fiber to ten person towns in the middle of nowhere.

And yet you used Africa as an example, instead of North America and Australia. Why? EDIT: Wow, you guys are really bad at admitting your own blatantly obvious biases, aren't you?

Because I've been to the Sahara desert and it's the most remote place I've ever been. I experienced the gaps in coverage first hand.

There are equivalent places in central Australia, but even though I grew up here I haven't been more than a few hours drive away from the coasts.

I haven't been to North America. Russia didn't cross my mind, but I haven't been there either.

This isn't to say I don't have warped perspectives or prejudices about Africa. I didn't realize the population density is that high in the south, where I haven't been.

Western media only discusses African countries when things go wrong. The only people I know from there are three white families who left South Africa. If you asked me to draw a map of the countries it would be my worst continent.

The original post though really was just based on my personal experience with remoteness.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#314

Post by smithza » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

gorgoiler wrote: post #300

mmaunder wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m afraid you will die on that hill and be replaced by a happy rural resident who was being abused by a local telco monopoly, but is now using competitively priced, fast, low latency satellite internet. Using keps and scrubbing exposures in post is something we could already do decades ago. It’ll just be a new part of the workflow and eventually the space NIMBYs will quiet down.

Spaceships and radio waves are cool and provide a unique solution. Let’s not pretend this was the one true way to get around Comcast et al’s stranglehold though. That problem could have been solved politically with regulation plus (in the countryside) ground based radio, or (in cities) with regulation of cable infrastructure such that it was separated from packet-routing and customer-service. If satellite ISPs genuin…

Yes, you make a very strong point. It seems the highest bidders in the city were able to work with city planners to lay their cable lines... while in the rural areas (where I grew up) there were not enough customers to justify modernizing old telephone wire.

The response to COVID-19 has been an expectancy on equal access to Internet and either the telco gets to capitalize on their geographic monopoly or the rural folks get short changed with 1980s dial-up or GEO satellite link.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#315

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

Lots of people don't think Starlink is important enough to be barely visible over the whole earth. Lots of people think it is. I don't care one way or the other, but I'm glad that the precedent is being set. Someday humanity will have a reason to put something big into orbit, and at that time those who favor progress won't want to have to fight the NotInMySky fanatics. As we can see ITT, they're worse than the New England wind farm opponents.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#316

Post by swframe2 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

Since their internet service will generate a lot of money, maybe spacex should just provide very low cost launches of future telescopes. Or maybe spacex should launch their own telescopes in partnership with researchers and sell the service for a low fee.

I also hope we tax companies that launch and own satellites to fund a clean up service that de-orbits all the junk before they cause the Kessler syndrome.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#317

Post by fredophile » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #284

verytrivial wrote: post #15

The article covers the mitigations already in place and how they only partially resolve the issue. These satellites are low, bright (at dawn/dusk) and very soon to be incredibly numerous. Yes, it is possible for data workflows to post-process these streaks away, but not all configurations allow this, and whereas previous intrusions were somewhat rare and could be ignored that simply won't be the case due to three com…

I’m afraid you will die on that hill and be replaced by a happy rural resident who was being abused by a local telco monopoly, but is now using competitively priced, fast, low latency satellite internet. Using keps and scrubbing exposures in post is something we could already do decades ago. It’ll just be a new part of the workflow and eventually the space NIMBYs will quiet down.

Most decisions, including where you live, come with some upsides and some downsides. Rural residents in developed countries made their choices. They accepted having less infrastructure than more densely populated areas in exchange for other factors. If they valued high speed internet that highly they would have made a different choice.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#318

Post by jeroenhd » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #311

jeroenhd wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same countries also have nationalized internet service providers, often run by friends or family of the government. I doubt it'd be legal to sell StarLink receivers in large parts of the continent. There's nothing in the landscape that prevents Africa from running fiber to every house like Eastern Europe has been proven to be capable of. In fact, a lot of infrastructure is already there. Geopolitical instability,…

I doubt it'd be legal to sell StarLink receivers in large parts of the continent. Has any nation ever successfully outlawed satellite reception? The roofs of buildings even in nations like Iran and KSA are studded with dishes.

India has banned most satellite telephones [1] (Inmarsat is still allowed apparently) and still catches people using them. There's a more complete list at [2].

Musk has already admitted that providing satellite services to countries like China can become a problem [3]. Countries that don't want StarLink and don't have the capabilities to take out LEO satellites might start to team up with China, Russia and other countries that do to protect their sovereignty.

Of course there's no way to prevent hardware that someone managed to sneak in from connecting to the satellites. Those devices will all need to come from the black market though, severely limiting the reach and future business StarLink might have in such a country.

[1]: http://www.gard.no/web/updates/content/26690148/ban-on-use-o...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_phone#Countries_with...

[3]: https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-co...

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#319

Post by valuearb » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

altacc wrote: post #253

valuearb wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A decade old study, using only NASA telescopes, using only super expensive launch systems. Now the Falcon Heavy can lift over double the payload mass of the Space Shuttle to orbit, for less than 1/40th the cost per pound.

Launch costs are only a fraction of the cost. The cost of a space telescope itself is massive, regardless of launch cost. The James Webb telescope is massively over budget but even it’s original $1 billion cost and 10 year build time is much more than many ground based observatories would have costed at the time. Currently it’s cost is about x10 it’s original estimate and 14 years late, partially because it’ll be on…

True, but if James Webb launched in a fairing as big as Starship, the unfolding mechanism that’s driven most of it’s delays and cost overruns would have been far simpler.

And space telescopes don’t suffer from atmospheric distortion, can focus on the same spots for days straight to collect more light, etc. those are huge advantages.

Re: How satellite ‘megaconstellations’ will photobomb astronomy images

#320

Post by valuearb » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #294

valuearb wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SpaceX is adding visors, which solve the problem without heating the satellites.

It is completely impossible to block light and not absorb and re-radiate heat.

Pedantic much?

In conversational English what I said is != blocks ALL light without absorbing ANY heat.

Visors block enough light to greatly reduce reflected light, and do it without substantially increasing satellite temperature. There is a thing called an insulator, which I hear can efficiently reduce the transfer of heat from things like visor to satellite.