Live data from Hacker News

Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

seths.blog

31–40 of 62 posts

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#31
post #15

I like this, but also on some level I feel like it's nothing more than inspirational "rah-rah" garbage. I wish he would have expanded on it. A great example of the distinction from my younger days: We had the game GranTurismo2 back when I was 12 or so. We wanted the really fancy "best" car in the game. The right way to get the good cars is to improve your skill and gain access to the higher level races that have bigg…

To be fair the boundaries blur a bit and that is where magic happens.

I don't mean magic like JRR Tolkien magic or whatever, I mean magic like David Copperfield magic, Penn & Teller magic.

You go to a restaurant, you ask for a thing, magically it appears in front of your very eyes and it is delicious. The secret was a lot of "long work" that went into the situation before you got there, so the cooks could be ready for anything you might order and could assemble it in a short time for you.

Magic is very often just a cleverly concealed patience. “How could she have known in advance that I was going to pick the jack of spades? That envelope has been in my hand the whole time and she has not touched it.” Well, if it really mattered, maybe she bought 52 decks of playing cards, filtered out the jack of spades from each one, and assembled a deck which only had the jack of spades in it. You thought you had a free choice, and you did, in the sense that you can get a model T in any color you want so long as it’s black. Of course the concealment takes some skill too, like maybe she unwrapped a different 52-card deck and threw out the jokers and instruction cards pointedly and then shuffled it before your eyes, then used some sleight of hand to switch the decks. But the point remains that the thing which makes it “magic” is the absurd backflips done out-of-sight. David Copperfield surely wouldn't make a Learjet in the middle of a ring of blindfolded people holding hands disappear by going out and hiring a quarter of those people to be stooges, having them disassemble their part of the circle and tow the plane out with a cable, and then reassemble the circle and interview the non-stooges for the camera, would he? OK, but he surely wouldn't go to the expense of building a rotating theater in order to vanish the statue of Liberty though right?

If you want to appear magical to others, a lot of it is going to be long work. Funny story, a lot of my physics education was spent in this way. We would get a problem, and my peers would sit there and scratch their heads and say “I wonder, what is the best way to solve this problem” and I would sit there and say “this is _a_ way to solve that problem, it’s not gonna be pretty and it’s gonna be painful but I will grind and grind and get an answer.” Then I would look at the answer and be like “that’s actually profoundly beautiful,” like maybe it’s the sort of answer which suggests that there is a duality between position and momentum space such that you could rotate one into the other, because it involves u x² + v p² for some u, v. Or maybe the answer is something divided by the total energy and I am like “oh maybe multiplying through by the total energy makes this derivation really really simple.”

And then since I know the answer I can reconstruct this beautiful argument and then I can write _that_ down as my final answer. Someone else sees this and thinks I am smart. Not as smart as I look! Hah. Then I learned that this is actually the basis for several cryptographic attacks called “meet in the middle;” often if you're trying to figure out the right path through a complex forest to an unknown solution you have to try N paths, but once you know where you are going then you can simultaneously work forwards from the starting point and backwards from the ending point and see which ones end up passing through the same point midway through the forest and you’ll succeed after only 2√N half-paths total because you get the product of (start attempts)×(finishing attempts) for the total number of paths you are trying through the forest.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#32
post #21
post #15

I like this, but also on some level I feel like it's nothing more than inspirational "rah-rah" garbage. I wish he would have expanded on it. A great example of the distinction from my younger days: We had the game GranTurismo2 back when I was 12 or so. We wanted the really fancy "best" car in the game. The right way to get the good cars is to improve your skill and gain access to the higher level races that have bigg…

There was an MMO game called "Kingdom of Loathing" I played back in 2006. The right way to get more money in the game is to improve your skills/equipment and gain access to the higher level areas that have bigger monsters/better loot. (hard work) What we did instead was manually create hundreds of new accounts, complete the tutorial level and then send the tutorial prize to the main account for selling on the open ma…

[deleted]

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#33
I think it’s what the “failure” would mean for a person that makes it hard, part of the fixed mindset Carol Dweck is talking about, i.e. only seeking validation of what one thinks of oneself.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#34

This makes me think of war time vs peace time. During a war, the govt will put engineers and architects into an R&D incubator with all the resources they need. To the engineers, the fact that there is a war is irrelevant, they aren't paying attention to that, they're just focussing on innovation because it's their job. Couldn't this scenario be simulated, even without war? I think of bell labs. It strange that innova…

If a department is doing well, or even just fair, it will do everything it possibly can to prevent any sort of innovation. When innovation happens, new rules and safeguards are put into place to make sure it doesn't happen again. Of course they'll keep talking about how innovation is very important and rewarded all the while they're stamping it out.

Innovation is a rebellious act which is why it typically only happens in small startup environments. Occasionally a larger company will set up a "skunkworks" where it can be temporarily tolerated by hiding it from the view of the rest of the organization.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#35
post #15

I like this, but also on some level I feel like it's nothing more than inspirational "rah-rah" garbage. I wish he would have expanded on it. A great example of the distinction from my younger days: We had the game GranTurismo2 back when I was 12 or so. We wanted the really fancy "best" car in the game. The right way to get the good cars is to improve your skill and gain access to the higher level races that have bigg…

But doesn't years of long work lead up to hard work. Early in my career a lot of time was spend learning concepts, theory and practice. After 10 years of this, I started seeing the big picture, recognize patterns and make decisions.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#36
post #15

I like this, but also on some level I feel like it's nothing more than inspirational "rah-rah" garbage. I wish he would have expanded on it. A great example of the distinction from my younger days: We had the game GranTurismo2 back when I was 12 or so. We wanted the really fancy "best" car in the game. The right way to get the good cars is to improve your skill and gain access to the higher level races that have bigg…

I did the endurance race track with a car that I knew could win, set it on auto with the computer to do the 100-200 laps. These days I think you can speed up the auto play by 5-10x.

Not a fun way to play when all there is is grind.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#37
post #21
post #15

I like this, but also on some level I feel like it's nothing more than inspirational "rah-rah" garbage. I wish he would have expanded on it. A great example of the distinction from my younger days: We had the game GranTurismo2 back when I was 12 or so. We wanted the really fancy "best" car in the game. The right way to get the good cars is to improve your skill and gain access to the higher level races that have bigg…

There was an MMO game called "Kingdom of Loathing" I played back in 2006. The right way to get more money in the game is to improve your skills/equipment and gain access to the higher level areas that have bigger monsters/better loot. (hard work) What we did instead was manually create hundreds of new accounts, complete the tutorial level and then send the tutorial prize to the main account for selling on the open ma…

So does coding bots to do the long work for you count as hard work or long work? Because that's the kind of work I've always preferred.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#38
post #37
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an MMO game called "Kingdom of Loathing" I played back in 2006. The right way to get more money in the game is to improve your skills/equipment and gain access to the higher level areas that have bigger monsters/better loot. (hard work) What we did instead was manually create hundreds of new accounts, complete the tutorial level and then send the tutorial prize to the main account for selling on the open ma…

So does coding bots to do the long work for you count as hard work or long work? Because that's the kind of work I've always preferred.

Hard work takes over and replaces long work when innovation, new skills and modalities are center stage and repetitive tasks take a back seat. I'd consider any form of automation hard work.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#39
Seth is always pithy and thus leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but I do find this an interesting prompt.

"Hard" is, of course, very subjective and depends a lot on the person and the project. What's hard for me may not be hard for someone else due to skillset, personal risk, time pressure, mindset, etc. and vice versa.

What's created hard work for me in the course of founding a startup is constantly balancing delivery timelines against a lack of resources and deep skills on the team. Having to invent my way out of situations I'm not technically qualified to handle where there is real risk to the business in being wrong or late has been harrowing, but also a very effective way to grow my skillset.

Re: Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

#40
It seems what is being called “hard work” here really is “expert work” which often can be no work at all, in that it rests on the shoulders of likely thousands of previous hours of long work, and can sometimes feel effortless. One seminal example of this Paula Scher’s 5 minute design of the Citigroup logo. https://link.medium.com/KuxBw6rJi9
Post reply on HN