Why Johnny Won't Upgrade • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#351

Post by agloe_dreams » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:16 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #252

Don't forget: "Never slow down the user interface". I have a 4K Sony television that was their flagship model when it was new, but a couple of years ago they "updated" it with a new version of its OS that looks identical but is incredibly sluggish. Not technically broken, but frustrating to use. Moving around between menu items is a good 2-3 seconds, up to 10 in some cases. There is literally nothing I can do about t…

Oh, did you get the ads yet? My Sony TV randomly started showing sponsored content on the Home Screen.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#352

Post by segfaultbuserr » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:18 AM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #245

orev wrote: post #106

I had been using a great app that’s been around since before the iPhone came out (PocketMoney on Palm). They rewrote it for IOS, and it was able to import the database from the Palm version. Really great. Then sadly the author died, and it languished for a while until it was sold to someone else. The new owner seemed to try to keep it going, but then finally gave up last year and crammed an absolutely awful “update”…

This is a real 'Stallman moment'. The issue there is less about updates, than about non-Free software (the thing the FSF talk about), and data silos (the thing the IndieWeb folks talk about). You committed to a non-Free software solution, the maintainers of which held all the power over the software, denying you the freedom to have the software do as you wish. When they make a decision, it's to maximise their benefit…

The standard story in the computer folklore was Movable Type [0], a blogging platform. In the early 2000s when blogosphere was at its height, Movable Type was used by numerous authors. It was freeware, source code available, and had a big collection of plugins and extensions. It was not Free and Open Source, with restrictions on use and redistribution, but most thought it was good enough.

As time went by, its shortcomings and limitations became obvious and a new version was needed. But the development has already stagnated because the publisher's interests shifted. And finally when the new version was released, it contained numerous bugs, and many bloggers suddenly found they needed to pay several hundreds dollars of licensing fee under the new license.

Matthew Thomas, a blogosphere personality, wrote an outline for anyone who wants to create an ultimate blogging platform [2] that can stand the test of time and prevent similar incidents from happening again. Requirements included free database backend, open archive formats, and free software.

His article was also the source of a famous remark,

> In the long run, the utility of all non-Free software approaches zero.

---

[0] https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2004-pilgrim-freedom0....

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20051107103030/http://mpt.phrasew...

[2] The Movable Type Incident was a major event responsible for the rise of WordPress, which was a new project at that time. Even the name "WordPress" refers to the printing press, in analogue to Movable Type.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#353

Post by Silhouette » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

tspiteri wrote: post #183

jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with automatic security updates, I make that pretty clear in the article and don't understand why you come to the conclusion that I wrote that 'all automatic updates are bad'. The second bullet in the list reads: "should be incremental and security or bug fixes only"

Maybe web browsers are an extreme case, but I think your model would only work for long term releases. It is not reasonable to expect browser vendors to backport all security fixes to all releases so that users on old releases get essential security fixes. So while I do agree that your model should be the default, I see nothing wrong in allowing people who want to live on the edge to have a release with updates that…

It is not reasonable to expect browser vendors to backport all security fixes to all releases so that users on old releases get essential security fixes.

Why? We built software and supported old releases for decades just fine until the current toxic culture of pushing out frequent, often poorly-tested changes over the Internet came along.

Jacques has this one right. There are different reasons for updates, and conflating them is a problem.

It would be in everyone's best interests if we rapidly patched security vulnerabilities. It might be in a user's best interests to receive a fix for a bug that was preventing the software from functioning properly, if the user wants that functionality. It might be in a user's best interests to receive an update that adds support for some new hardware or online service or data format, if the user is interested in compatibility with those things.

None of the cases above implies any loss of existing functionality or change in existing UI, though. Updates can do those things as well, but we should clearly distinguish those from updates for reasons like security, robustness or compatibility, and it is not obvious that the same update procedures will be appropriate for all of these cases.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#354

Post by cwingrav » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

megablast wrote: post #301

kleiba wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful! Apple might sue you for IP theft.

Apple is one of the few coMpanies you should trust for this.

From the article, "It said the lithium-ion batteries in the devices became less capable of supplying peak current demands, as they aged over time. That could result in an iPhone unexpectedly shutting down to protect its electronic components. So, it released a software update for the iPhone 6, iPhone 6s and iPhone SE which "smoothed out" battery performance."

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#355

Post by GoblinSlayer » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:22 AM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #133

cringepirate wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. You can almost always take your business elsewhere. It depends whether you think it is worth it, depending on how hard it makes the rest of your life. If people really cared (as much as they claim) you will make alternatives work for you.

If you've a following on instagram and you decide to leave for whatever reason, you can't take your followers with you. Maybe some will jump over if you link them to other platforms If you've an iOS app and you've run afoul of the app store, you can't take those iOS users with you without asking them to switch to another platform or asking them to use a web app instead (both of which are forbidden, I think) If you're…

People, who still insist on developing programs for Apple out of greed are in collusion with Apple to strengthen their monopoly and should serve proportional share of Apple's sentence if it's ever to be judged for its anticompetitive business. They can't possibly be ignorant about it today.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#356

Post by imhoguy » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:28 AM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #200

imhoguy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully almost anyone can side-load APK with older version - unless a developer blocks the API. But agreed it is a mess. That is why I think auto-updating mobile devices or "the cloud" will never fully replace computers with a local software for a serious work.

My gripe here is with system updates, not apps from the Play Store.

But system is composed of system apps which are APKs too e.g. launchers, camera apps, even settings. You can install alternatives freely. Although it is not easy to side-load older stock version without root.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#357

Post by echelon » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:31 AM UTC

grishka wrote: post #332

whatch wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because I've never owned a dedicated TV and used a lot of computer monitors, but I've always treated TV as just another kind of output device, not independent system. They try to use "smart" features to promote their products, but instead what they do with them shortly after the purchase has exactly opposite effect. Also some of them (Samsung) intentionally break some (or all) smart features in some cases…

A smart TV is dumb as long as it never sees an internet connection.

It could encode signal in inaudible high frequency audio that the Facebook app passively listens for.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#358

Post by Silhouette » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:32 AM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #4

Some automatic updates should really just be different products. The most obvious one at the moment is Android Firefox is getting a big automatic update that, for a lot of people, will be a very big downgrade and an unfriendly UI change. But Mozilla doesn't want to maintain security patches for X different products. And that's true of most vendors. This model of computing where all users are always on the latest vers…

But Mozilla doesn't want to maintain security patches for X different products. And that's true of most vendors. This model of computing where all users are always on the latest version makes security patching and bug fixing a lot more straight forward.

This is much less of a problem if you only release new versions at a slower pace, as we used to. There is no good reason that something like a web browser needs to do major updates every month or two. For most users, having a major release annually with just point releases for security fixes in the meantime would be more than sufficient.

I've worked on plenty of professional software that would release a new major version perhaps every 1-2 years and seemed to have no difficulty with backporting security patches and sometimes other important bug fixes for several versions. It's not rocket science. It just doesn't fit nicely into the modern dev culture of pushing everything forwards as fast as possible with little regard for stability or backward compatibility and with the ratchet effects from data format changes and deploying updates to the software seen as positive things.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#359

Post by krageon » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:39 AM UTC

Hackbraten wrote: post #348

xg15 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latest-generation devices contain hardware fuses purposely designed to make prevent downgrading. I think that tells you all you need to know about the position the industry has towards downgrades and whether updates are in the interest of the user or not.

I hate DRM, and I’m a free software advocate. However, if I were in the shoes of a TV content provider who relies on DRM, I would seriously consider lobbying system designers to prevent firmware downgrades. I wouldn’t want consumers to downgrade their systems and exploit already-patched vulnerabilities in order to circumvent DRM. One could argue that DRM is evil and wrong, too. But then again, it enables subscription…

The DRM module could be on a separate bit of memory from the actual OS, meaning that it would stay upgraded even if the rest was downgraded. It doesn't use fuses (AFAIK anyway), but f.e. the baseband on your phone works like this.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#360

Post by Silhouette » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 11:39 AM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #17

wvenable wrote: post #4

Some automatic updates should really just be different products. The most obvious one at the moment is Android Firefox is getting a big automatic update that, for a lot of people, will be a very big downgrade and an unfriendly UI change. But Mozilla doesn't want to maintain security patches for X different products. And that's true of most vendors. This model of computing where all users are always on the latest vers…

I don't know about anybody else, but I know I have a huge motivation cliff when it comes to continuing to pay the consequences for old mistakes that I have already sacrificed to make amends for? How do I sell my coworkers on making a change that's the Right Thing to Do when we all know damned well that we're still going to have to support the Wrong Way for another four years? I might as well grow thick callouses, lea…

I don't know about anybody else, but I know I have a huge motivation cliff when it comes to continuing to pay the consequences for old mistakes that I have already sacrificed to make amends for?

Sometimes, you just have to be professional and deal with it, if you want to have a quality product and look after your users.

We'd never accept a doctor or an engineer taking this attitude. If they discovered a mistake with potentially serious consequences in their earlier work, we would expect them to make it good as quickly and safely as possible.

Software makes a crazy amount of money and has a huge impact on billions of lives every day. Frankly, we as devs enjoy good and often very well paid jobs. I don't think we should accept that attitude in our industry either. If anyone doesn't like that, maybe invest more in writing better code in the first place and in testing before going into production so there are fewer problems to revisit!