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Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

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Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#341

Post by grishka »

Joeri wrote: post #247
cs702 wrote: post #8

As a user of software, I couldn't agree more with the OP that automatic updates: > should always keep the user centric > should be incremental and security or bug fixes only > should never update a user interface without allowing the previous one to be used as the default > should never be used to install telemetry or spyware or to re-enable it if it was previously switched off > should never be used to install other…

If you have to do all that, it costs a lot more to develop updates. I think most developers mean well but just can't afford to do it all. For example: > should be incremental and security or bug fixes only That means maintaining multiple releases of the app, and porting fixes between those versions, while also maintaining data migration logic when fixes affect data formats. I've maintained an enterprise software suit…

That's the point. If updates are expensive, you'd think twice about pushing one out every week for no good reason.

As far as file formats go, how often do you need to change these, anyway? I'm fascinated with most of the mainstream file formats (except mp3, mp3 sucks) — they're built with extreme extensibility in mind, and you have to try really hard to make something incompatible with the rest of the world. So, then, what stops you from designing your own file formats to be extensible? You add a new feature, you add a new section to your file. The user downgrades, and the old version skips over that section because it doesn't know about it. It's easy.

And besides, I've seen a lot of software that's able to save files that are 100% compatible with older versions of itself if that's what the user asks for. Microsoft Office is one example.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#342

Post by dcminter »

I'm still angry about a Windows 10 "upgrade" that overrode my late father's repeated declines. It rendered his previously working and familiar PC completely unusable and with his failing health he couldn't face getting to know a new OS and reinstalling it.

It prevented him from having the tools to book a last holiday in the sun, and in my view Microsoft stole that from him.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#343

Post by out_of_protocol »

viraptor wrote: post #223
blub wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legacy UI often works fine and the new UI's sole purpose is to justify the salaries of the design department. Ask any customer if they're willing to pay for a new UI and you'll likely find that they don't.

It depends on a question though. "Do you want a UI redesign?" will likely be a no. "Do you want to access the thing you're using 100 times a day in 1 click rather than 5 menus?" will always be a yes. Unless the company is completely failing at its strategy (and that's not the same thing as many vocal people saying that on the internet forum), the redesign has goals and some reason behind it. Your "worse" may be solut…

> "Do you want to access the thing you're using 100 times a day in 1 click rather than 5 menus?"

Usually, that's an argument for the old version

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#344

Post by grumple »

Updating Mac OSX invariably breaks things for my workflow. If I’m lucky, I just have to reinstall Xcode and agree to terms (annoying). If I’m unlucky, an app stops working, or there’s a critical security vulnerability (like free admin access for anyone as in ~2018), or worse, mysterious video/audio failures like I’ve had since the most recent update (some compatibility with my setup of hub to usb switcher was broken).

So the lesson is, never upgrade unless you need to.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#345

Post by swiley »

jiggawatts wrote: post #252

Don't forget: "Never slow down the user interface". I have a 4K Sony television that was their flagship model when it was new, but a couple of years ago they "updated" it with a new version of its OS that looks identical but is incredibly sluggish. Not technically broken, but frustrating to use. Moving around between menu items is a good 2-3 seconds, up to 10 in some cases. There is literally nothing I can do about t…

There is no way I’m ever buying a TV.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#346

Post by tpxl »

dt3ft wrote: post #188
cgrealy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree about interfaces. File formats should be supported though. At the very least, I should be able to import a file from the old version and have it converted.

If you pay for your software through a subscription, of course, no problem. You paid for software once? Well, tough luck. Your older versions will no longer be supported because we can't afford developers because you stopped giving us money. There is no way anyone is going to be supporting old formats while providing free updates. This makes no business sense.

When updating from one format to another, you should generally write code to convert it. Once you have that code, it should be trivial to update old -> new format by using all the intermediate software versions, or not as trivially, you can have a transformer from all previous versions to the current in your latest releases.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#347

Post by Silhouette »

shawnz wrote: post #207
mmphosis wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have Windows 10 Pro. It is horrible. And, I have no choice in any of it. Advertisements pop up at random times. I am constantly turning things off, and they get turned back on again. I am diligent about checking for updates at the end of my work day, and then turning off scheduled updates. I cannot afford to wait for a "Do not turn off your computer" screen.

I assure you, being diligent about checking for updates is more than enough to solve that issue and there is no need to disable updates in addition. If you install them regularly, then you will not be interrupted. You will only be interrupted if you don't do that for weeks. If you don't believe me, then just try it. Don't base your decisions on FUD from tech bloggers about how terrible the update process is.

I assure you, being diligent about checking for updates is more than enough to solve that issue and there is no need to disable updates in addition. If you install them regularly, then you will not be interrupted.

Changing back settings that you already changed once and an update reverted is still an interruption.

Having ads or new social-media-backed login screens shoved in your face when you try to run your software is still an interruption.

Restoring damaged or destroyed data from backups is still an interruption.

Reinstalling a wrecked system because some device driver or anti-virus update rendered it inoperable is still an interruption.

We are far from the rosy future you describe in some of your comments here. You might have been lucky enough not to get caught out recently, but clearly many people and businesses have not been so lucky.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#348

Post by Hackbraten »

xg15 wrote: post #265
rightbyte wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you downgrade the firmware? I feel like I am at the whim of anti social behavior and conspiracies at some anonymous office with auto updates enabled. The Scrum Agile morning standups at Toaster Corp. could just as well be in my kitchen pushing user hostile features for "business reasons" or enforcing ideologically pure ways to use their toaster.

Latest-generation devices contain hardware fuses purposely designed to make prevent downgrading. I think that tells you all you need to know about the position the industry has towards downgrades and whether updates are in the interest of the user or not.

I hate DRM, and I’m a free software advocate. However, if I were in the shoes of a TV content provider who relies on DRM, I would seriously consider lobbying system designers to prevent firmware downgrades.

I wouldn’t want consumers to downgrade their systems and exploit already-patched vulnerabilities in order to circumvent DRM.

One could argue that DRM is evil and wrong, too. But then again, it enables subscriptions and renting and there’s arguably a market for both.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#349

Post by panpanna »

eru wrote: post #326
roenxi wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The winners in the competitive struggle are going to be people who don't break things. People who routinely reset their ecosystem tend to lose then get forgotten. It isn't so much their influence as much as there is a community that is constantly searching for reliable platforms to build on.

> People who routinely reset their ecosystem tend to lose then get forgotten. ARM seems to be doing well and they release binary incompatible chips every so often. And resetting had long been the norm in the world of games consoles. So I wouldn't take what we observed in the personal computer industry as a universal truth. It's probably rather contingent.

When did ARM ever release a binary incompatible CPU?

For the application space they have the old armv7 and the new armv8. The latter can actually run armv7 in aarch32 mode.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#350

Post by swiley »

Silhouette wrote: post #329
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real 'Stallman moment'. The issue there is less about updates, than about non-Free software (the thing the FSF talk about), and data silos (the thing the IndieWeb folks talk about). You committed to a non-Free software solution, the maintainers of which held all the power over the software, denying you the freedom to have the software do as you wish. When they make a decision, it's to maximise their benefit…

The modern problem of having your data locked up is a much bigger one than the old arguments about Free Software. Data portability would be a good solution to a lot of the problems with user-hostile technologies. The trouble is, given the vast range of things we do with technology, it may be unreasonable or impractical to create a universal obligation for software developers to provide export facilities that allow tr…

Is it so hard to just give the user a sql dump of all of their data? (or a json blob if it’s some nosql thing.) If it’s not in a db then just give them the files. None of that seems complicated.
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