Slightly off-topic, but to me these kinds of articles always offer an amazing insight into how the average (okay, if they're literally average or not is debatable) American thinks cities and urban planning. If you read a bit through the comment box, about half of the comments are from people scandalized and terrified that Portland will immediately turn into a huge dumpster rife with crime because of the new legislati…
Portland passes low-density zoning reform
411–420 of 438 posts
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#412I live in the area. Proponents have couched this as a 'progressive' vs. 'nimby' effort, which like the rest of life is not true at all. Housing is complex, not good vs. evil, liberal vs. conservative, urgan vs sprawl. If you doubt this, watch how much this comment is downvoted. One thing we know, based on over a century of data around the world: increasing density of housing has little effect on affordability, in the…
> Private developers do the work, for profit, most often for investment groups. If it doesn't 'pencil out', nobody will build it This is a huge reason why the notion that our housing affordability problems can be boiled down to "simple" issues of "supply and demand" is false. Developers don't over build supply. Why would they? There's no economic reason to. Whenever any sort of overbuilding occurs which would oversup…
The conflict is that you two are saying the laws of supply and demand don't work because of two mutually incompatible reasons.
Those two things can't be true at the same time. So either of you must be wrong. And it's pretty obvious that your comment is the only one that doesn't violate basic logic. However, just because you're not wrong doesn't mean you're capturing the whole truth.
>This is a huge reason why the notion that our housing affordability problems can be boiled down to "simple" issues of "supply and demand" is false.
>Developers don't over build supply. Why would they? There's no economic reason to. Whenever any sort of overbuilding occurs which would oversupply , it is always by some accident (eg. a pandemic), and the taps are turned off immediately.
Building exactly as much housing as needed would still result in lower prices. When you have 10 houses and 20 people only the 10 richest people get a house because they are bidding up the prices. If there are 20 houses and 20 people then everyone gets a house. If there are 25 houses and 20 people then landlords will compete with each other and try to lower the rent they charge to fill their units. Villages with 1€ houses exist for a reason.
Do you know what the worst mistake in housing discussions is that everyone tends to make? Everyone talks about the price because that is what people can see and what people are familiar with. No one talks about housing in absolute numbers. Nobody thinks about the fact that one more house means one more person. Everyone is thinking about how an "evil" house is going to raise housing prices even further because people are only familiar with expensive housing because they made it illegal for inexpensive housing to exist, when policies like this reform are intended to allow inexpensive housing.
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#413In 2020, Portland officially becomes a shithole city.
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#414> "It shouldn’t take six years for any city to agree to give itself permission to build the sort of homes that every city once allowed." This is IMO the big thing here. Cities used to allow this kind of construction. Our auto-friendly culture and the desire of landowners to keep poor people off their block has led to increasingly draconian restrictions on private property use. I understand regulations around keeping…
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ya, Caro's summary is very measured, which I think older, calmer me now agrees with: The problem was never the automobile per se, but the emphasis on the automobile to the exclusion of everything else. Starting with land use policies which only accommodate automobile centric development.
The biggest error in early auto policy, in my opinion, was the emphasis on straight-line speed over continuous flow. The first cars were not that fast and did not accelerate easily, so it makes some sense that there would be advocacy to get every last bit out of the engine through highway design. Add to that the requisite hype for a new, impactful technology and you get the approach that paved the earth. But we have…
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
Three of those are just other ways of increasing real estate prices. They're additive, not alternative. Now suppose somebody could knock down your million dollar three bedroom home there, put up five condos that size on the same lot and sell them each for $750K. That'd make the property itself worth more than a million dollars, right?
Prices are high because there is demand. Zoning keeps supply scarce. The reason why you can sell these condos for 750k is because of demand and scarcity. If everyone turned their million dollar home into condos, supply would increase, demand would be met, prices would fall, and suddenly you wouldn't have a million dollar home or 5 750k condos. On top of that in CA, if you were to hold your million dollar home, your p…
Which is why the price falls from a million dollars to $750k for the same amount of square footage. But now you have five times as much square footage on the same piece of land, which is more than the decrease in price per square foot. And still would be even if the price per unit fell to $400k.
> On top of that in CA, if you were to hold your million dollar home, your property taxes are locked in even while the asset value increases exponentially.
Which is just a facet of existing local tax law. You could get to the same place by just having very low property taxes in general.
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dorms have RAs, security officers, cleaning staff, food courts, university police, and a wrap of social services that can nudge a person slipping back into line, or send them packing quickly. Landlords, rightly, shouldn't be able to send people packing with little to no notice. Without the security, social services, and cleaning staff I expect any project of the same scale as a large University to catastrophically fa…
> The unfortunate reality is that mentally ill people that don't know how to take care of themselves are expensive. When did I ever mention housing for the mentally ill? What I'm saying is I think consenting, functional adults should have the option of living in a dorm-style setting if they so choose. For one, it's a great way to build community. For two, it should be a significantly cheaper way to live, which would…
Your casual use of "consenting functional adults" is overly simplistic. It is a fact that desperate people make desperate decisions. If you're only allowing such people then we should set an income floor so the poor cannot be preyed upon. Say, the true cost of living in the city? Anyone making less is not in a fair position to consent to such living conditions.
>Apartment complexes already have on-premise maintenance staff. There is no reason to expect that a dorm-style building couldn't also be staffed appropriately.
Hah. Maybe the ones you live in. Can't tell you how many apartments I've lived or been in that had mold, roaches, faulty wiring, dangerous appliances, and the like that went without repair despite repeated complaints over months and years.
So while in theory it's not a bad idea. In practice, because of the same societal problems that make this a serious consideration, projects like this are doomed to fail without massive community support and budgets that would probably rival just giving each tenant a custom ordered bare minimum trailer in a park packed like sardines.
1. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/mental-illness.sh...
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dorms have RAs, security officers, cleaning staff, food courts, university police, and a wrap of social services that can nudge a person slipping back into line, or send them packing quickly. Landlords, rightly, shouldn't be able to send people packing with little to no notice. Without the security, social services, and cleaning staff I expect any project of the same scale as a large University to catastrophically fa…
>The unfortunate reality is that mentally ill people that don't know how to take care of themselves are expensive. Think cleaning feces off of every imaginable surface, thousand room bed bug outbreaks, all the awful diseases that occur in unkempt showers or locker rooms. How will we keep so many people in confined quarters happy and busy enough to not cause massive problems? Removal of high-density housing isn't solv…
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#419Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dorms have RAs, security officers, cleaning staff, food courts, university police, and a wrap of social services that can nudge a person slipping back into line, or send them packing quickly. Landlords, rightly, shouldn't be able to send people packing with little to no notice. Without the security, social services, and cleaning staff I expect any project of the same scale as a large University to catastrophically fa…
Either you pay for it in full by having them in jail or on the street, or you pay (less) for it by addressing those issues. There is no way to avoid the costs of the fact that we need to help everyone in society.
Re: Portland passes low-density zoning reform
#420Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a very different experience than you. I ride or walk everywhere I go. Bikes may be slower than cars, but -- when they're being used for commuting, not toodling around on a Sunday afternoon -- they are much, much faster than pedestrians. When I'm walking, I don't want bikes whizzing by me at three times my speed. When I'm biking, I don't want to be constantly worrying about people on foot -- or their kids, or t…
I think you might underestimate how large streets are and overestimate the number of bikes and pedestrians.