Why Johnny Won't Upgrade • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#141

Post by stubish » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:40 AM UTC

Taring everything with the same brush. There was a time, not so long ago, when it was impossible to install Windows over the Internet because so many other machines were compromised and your machine would, with certainty, also end up compromised before it had gotten as far as applying the latest service pack. Then we got automatic updates, and we all breathed a sigh of relief because things got better. We had empirical evidence that other people do not keep their systems secure. And now apparently all automatic updates are bad, because people think I should trust them to be competent and proactive, when I know for a fact that other people are not competent and proactive. Or because people think it is the vendors problem, yet don't want vendors to push the necessary fixes.

Yes, some vendors suck. But the solution isn't to demand they stop making fixes. And the solution isn't to demand they stop pushing fixes, since we know in most cases the fixes won't be voluntarily applied until it's too late. I say it is a requirement for a competent vendor to push the best version of their software. The problem I see is a disagreement between consumers and vendors on what that best version should be. And not all vendors are like that.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#142

Post by mattnewton » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:47 AM UTC

stubish wrote: post #141

Taring everything with the same brush. There was a time, not so long ago, when it was impossible to install Windows over the Internet because so many other machines were compromised and your machine would, with certainty, also end up compromised before it had gotten as far as applying the latest service pack. Then we got automatic updates, and we all breathed a sigh of relief because things got better . We had empiri…

It’s funny you mention Microsoft, because I have a windows machine to play games on. It regularly updates itself and re-enables telemetry I had disabled, shows spammy news in the start menu and ads for Microsoft products in my toolbar, and reinstalls skype every time I try to get rid of it.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#143

Post by stormdennis » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:49 AM UTC

stubish wrote: post #141

Taring everything with the same brush. There was a time, not so long ago, when it was impossible to install Windows over the Internet because so many other machines were compromised and your machine would, with certainty, also end up compromised before it had gotten as far as applying the latest service pack. Then we got automatic updates, and we all breathed a sigh of relief because things got better . We had empiri…

I think it's preferable not to push fixes as long as people are made aware of the risks they're running. So there should be an automatic opt-in but an option to opt out with suitable warnings issued at the time.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#144

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:50 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #140

tomc1985 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've a following on instagram and you decide to leave for whatever reason, you can't take your followers with you. Maybe some will jump over if you link them to other platforms If you've an iOS app and you've run afoul of the app store, you can't take those iOS users with you without asking them to switch to another platform or asking them to use a web app instead (both of which are forbidden, I think) If you're…

> If you've a following on instagram and you decide to leave for whatever reason, you can't take your followers with you. Maybe some will jump over if you link them to other platforms You should diversify your social media presence then and let your followers know "look if I am not here one day this is my website or you can find me here". > If you've an iOS app and you've run afoul of the app store, you can't take th…

> You are actually validating my point about people being ignorant of the risks of using services that can suspend you account for any reason at any time. Don't use them, or if you must then mitigate any potential fallout from losing access to that service.

I love to trot out the "don't be stupid" argument too, and it never works. If "don't be stupid" was at all an effective mantra, tech would look a whole lot different. But people being stupid is what sustains these practices, and it is what provides the lock-in effect that I'm describing. Plus, someone will argue that it discriminates against unintelligent or mentally handicapped folks (which it does), or underprivileged folks and minorities (which is debatable). And then someone else will argue that people should be able to drive their car without having to know how to repair them (that's what services are for!) or that their specific choice in make/model/whatever shouldn't have a future tragic effect on their life. And those arguments are supported by law and government agencies backing them up.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#145

Post by iliketosleep » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:50 AM UTC

orev wrote: post #106

I had been using a great app that’s been around since before the iPhone came out (PocketMoney on Palm). They rewrote it for IOS, and it was able to import the database from the Palm version. Really great. Then sadly the author died, and it languished for a while until it was sold to someone else. The new owner seemed to try to keep it going, but then finally gave up last year and crammed an absolutely awful “update”…

If it's an option for you, it is possible to downgrade most apps if you jailbreak your phone and install a downgrade tweak.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#146

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:52 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #132

spirobel wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about adobe though? what if you work in a field where you are forced to use a certain proprietary file format or software? this sounds a bit naiive. go talk to real johnnys :-)

The last time I checked there was many competitors to Adobe in almost all the products they offered. You aren't forced to use their software at all. In any event you can slowly move away from using a companies products. It isn't a all or nothing proposition.

> The last time I checked there was many competitors to Adobe in almost all the products they offered. You aren't forced to use their software at all.

Dude, if you're a professional graphic designer, you're using an Adobe workflow. The amount of friction that you would encounter in your daily work for any other choice is simply too high.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#147

Post by cringepirate » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #144

cringepirate wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've a following on instagram and you decide to leave for whatever reason, you can't take your followers with you. Maybe some will jump over if you link them to other platforms You should diversify your social media presence then and let your followers know "look if I am not here one day this is my website or you can find me here". > If you've an iOS app and you've run afoul of the app store, you can't take th…

> You are actually validating my point about people being ignorant of the risks of using services that can suspend you account for any reason at any time. Don't use them, or if you must then mitigate any potential fallout from losing access to that service. I love to trot out the "don't be stupid" argument too, and it never works. If "don't be stupid" was at all an effective mantra, tech would look a whole lot differ…

Making excuses for ignorance is simply promoting learned helplessness.

Yes I appreciate there are edge cases such as the mentally handicapped. However realistic I am talking about the majority of the population which are capable of looking after themselves.

Again this much like another reply I received. You are making it an all or nothing scenario.

Realistically it will be a combination of regulation and people starting to get wise to what these companies are doing. At the moment the regulators don’t have the power or aren’t up to speed. So instead of waiting for the shit to hit the fan you can protect yourself and start mitigating risk.

I really don’t like this attitude of people that you cannot try to protect yourself.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#148

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:01 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #147

tomc1985 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are actually validating my point about people being ignorant of the risks of using services that can suspend you account for any reason at any time. Don't use them, or if you must then mitigate any potential fallout from losing access to that service. I love to trot out the "don't be stupid" argument too, and it never works. If "don't be stupid" was at all an effective mantra, tech would look a whole lot differ…

Making excuses for ignorance is simply promoting learned helplessness. Yes I appreciate there are edge cases such as the mentally handicapped. However realistic I am talking about the majority of the population which are capable of looking after themselves. Again this much like another reply I received. You are making it an all or nothing scenario. Realistically it will be a combination of regulation and people start…

When it comes to technology the majority of the population is not capable of looking after themselves. And it won't be this way for a very, very long time.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#149

Post by hkmurakami » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

gfxgirl wrote: post #116

hkmurakami wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Updated Instagram on a whim. Instantly regretted having Reels shoved in my face with no way to remove it.

I agree with the upgrade hate on this page but ... There are lots exceptions. Instagram is a hosted image service not an app. There is an app, that app is just a front end for the service. Being a service it's no different than any other service. You go into a restaurant, you like the ambiance. You go back and they've remodeled and you no longer like it. You go to the bakery and enjoy the friendly person behind the c…

The distinction (imo) is that had I stayed on the old version I could have enjoyed the previous friendly person behind the counter whom I really liked for a few more months, and now I have no way of going back to that person :(

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#150

Post by kl4m » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 5:06 AM UTC

mianos wrote: post #105

One of the most incredible examples of this I have experienced was the update to the Android 'Pocket Casts' app. It worked great, had useful functionality and was easy to use and navigate. I had a paid version I thought was great value Then, out of the blue, they replaced it with a re-write. The new app was slow, missing most of the functionality in the previous app (not esoteric stuff, but things like play lists). T…

I had to replace the default Apple Podcasts app (went with overcast). An update made it completely unusable for me, particularly when I had one hand available to hold the phone and press buttons.