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SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

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231–240 of 258 posts

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#231
post #36

These are good steps, but abolishing all wealth-tests entirely would still be better. There's no wealth-test that prevents a person from losing all their money in highly-leveraged investments - from real-estate to fancy public-market securities. (Over-leveraging into real estate is practically encouraged by public policy.) There's no wealth test against putting all one's cash into gambling, which can be arbitrarily w…

> abolishing all wealth-tests entirely would still be better The problem is the cost of doing diligence. Not investor competence. In public markets, the cost of producing reports on the issuer. In private markets, almost by definition, it's on the investor. Each investor must thus have the resources, legal at a minimum, to evaluate an opportunity. Given these resources have a high minimum cost, an investor of limited…

Family rips each other off all the time. And for some reason it’s the cheated party who has to risk being ostracized if they don’t let it go.

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a strong financial incentive for the market to engage in fraudulent activities against investors. And the smaller the investor, the greater then incentive. Public companies have regulations that help prevent such fraud by requiring things such as audits by third party accounting firms, and regulating how these audits may be performed. Such regulations came about specifically as the result of fraud committed b…

It's a matter of principle though. You don't restrict the freedom of individuals to protect them from other individuals that are bad actors. You go hard and strong after the bad actors. What other examples of laws outside of finance can you cite where individuals are restricted in order to protect them from other bad actors? It's absurd and not in the scope of what government should be doing.

> You don't restrict the freedom of individuals to protect them from other individuals that are bad actors. You go hard and strong after the bad actors.

That's fine. But you first up the enforcement and second decrease the qualifications.

I can tell you from personal experience that the SEC has a lousy record of enforcement against even serial bad actors. And the civil system is even worse.

4 of 9 startups that I have been involved with have had criminal levels of malfeasance and have gone to court and lost--however, that didn't win anybody any money. And the SEC was nowhere to be found. Perhaps I'm just bad at picking startups, but anecdata from my friends suggests that I'm batting better than most and that the fact that they got judgments against them is the unusual part and not the 50% having malfeasance.

Story time of the worst: worked for a startup that had the usual friends and family investment structure. A couple dozen people all at $50K-$100K. No big deal.

Came in to do technical work. Okay, once I got there it was clear that everybody was out of their depth and the work was going to be significantly more than expected. Not unusual, and I'm working hourly with some number of hours defrayed by stock options if I think the idea is useful.

Start down the path. CEO is spending money like water on marketing. That's not unheard of and probably not even a bad idea.

The CEO then gets a "lawyer" from Silicon Valley who attempts a maneuver to take control of the company from the investors without buying them out.

And here come the lawyers.

So, of course, at this point, a chunk of us demand both the financial records as well as the documents behind the maneuver. Denied, so we need to compel the request.

And, of course, once we get the documents, we find that the company has been bled of nearly $1.5 million in cash in what were later found to be illegal arrangements.

Off to court we go. So, what are your options?

You can sue individuals, but that means piercing the corporate veil. You can force the company into bankruptcy, but if you're found against, you can wind up with a big penalty on your hands. You can report to the SEC, who basically ignore you because this simply isn't worth their time to bother with ($10 million is the minimum to even get them to call you back).

And through all of this, you will be spending cash to your lawyers while the opposing side is spending investor cash to fight you. Or, in this instance, has cut a special deal with the "lawyers" by giving them a "retainer" of $300K and now is doing work "for free".

Oh, by the way, the clock is ticking. If you don't push the company into bankruptcy soon, that "retainer" can't be clawed back because it will be outside the time window.

Fine. File a suit to force payment due and force them in bankruptcy.

The opposing "lawyer" shows up and his sole job is to delay while doing nothing. The judge even finds in your favor and admits that he has no sufficient way to penalize the company or the lawyer. And likely won't penalize the lawyer anyway because the court system protects its own--even the scumbags.

And, by the way, a significant cohort of the investors are VERY upset with you. They like the con-man, after all. So, you aren't crusaders for justice; you're interlopers who upset the apple cart.

And, if you're vulnerable, you may get a suit launched against you by the company for "reasons". Yes, it's a nuisance and you will win, but it will cost you even more money.

The moral is: We probably would have been better off to simply let him keep stealing money from people, cut a deal for some level of payment and just walk away.

THIS is the reality you are championing for. Just so you know.

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#233
post #149

My biggest problem with this is that I have had multiple opportunities as a young professional to invest in my friends’ small funds, only to be turned away at the last minute when they decided to only accept accredited investors. On the other hand, I could participate in sh*tcoin ICO’s, get rich quick “courses”, and become a real estate “investor” by attending presentations at a Holiday Inn conference room. The law a…

> I’ve read about several people that weren’t accredited checking the box anyways, and no enforcement actually happens That's because it's not a prohibition on individuals as it wouldn't be constitutional. It is a prohibition on issuers, who can face civil and criminal sanctions while also having the entire offering rescinded retroactively. The government effectively achieves what they were going for either way. (A s…

What happens when a VC does their due diligence in a later investment, sees you in the mix, and bails?

I’m fairly sure a place I worked at had this problem, and it held up funding for a long time.

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#234
post #36

These are good steps, but abolishing all wealth-tests entirely would still be better. There's no wealth-test that prevents a person from losing all their money in highly-leveraged investments - from real-estate to fancy public-market securities. (Over-leveraging into real estate is practically encouraged by public policy.) There's no wealth test against putting all one's cash into gambling, which can be arbitrarily w…

In any case, we aren't supposed to have "one law for the rich and another for the poor".

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My preferred solution is UBI + no gambling with the UBI rule. Similar effect in this area (ignoring all the other wonderful benefits a UBI has) but without the nastiness of a net worth rule.

Where do you draw the line between gambling & investment...? Example: Median returns across venture capital are net-negative, even if expected value is net-positive: https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/01/the-meeting-that-showed-me... The effect is even more extreme for early-stage startups given the power-law nature of returns.

Yeah it's all gambling. I'm doing a 180 and saying net worth floor bad, can't spend UBI on it good. The "it" in both cases is supposed to be held constant.

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#237
post #36

These are good steps, but abolishing all wealth-tests entirely would still be better. There's no wealth-test that prevents a person from losing all their money in highly-leveraged investments - from real-estate to fancy public-market securities. (Over-leveraging into real estate is practically encouraged by public policy.) There's no wealth test against putting all one's cash into gambling, which can be arbitrarily w…

These law weren’t enacted to keep people with less wealth out, but because people with less wealth were fraudulently victimized in mass.

The masses now are most certainly just as, if not more, susceptible to fraud now then they ever were. Then people were literally selling stock certificates on the street, now people line up like sheep to be lead to the slaughter and fight their way to the front.

This may be celebrated like a much needed deregulation, but this was pushed by some deep pocketed special interests that can’t wait to give the unemployed masses the ability to day trade right from their phones.

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#238
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's say you want to permit gambling, because people should be free to gamble. Even in the case of permitting it, there are still legitimate reasons to have regulatory systems. For example, if you go to a casino to play craps, you as a consumer have an expectation that the casino is giving you fair dice. Now we could say that such a thing shouldn't be regulated, let the market decide or whatever, but now every time…

Absent government regulation doesn't necessarily lead to the scenario you described of everyone having to test the dice all the time. Third party certifiers could (and many believe would) emerge as trusted testers. For example, if you own a casino you can request certification from the "Fair Dice Association." They can then certify that your dice are fair. I as a consumer know they're reputation, and I trust their du…

The problem here is that somebody has to pay the Fair Dice Association and generally it ends up being the Casino. It also generally pays better to be a dealer than a dice certifier, so certifiers are often weighing the possibility of future employment when inspecting the dice. Finally, the risk of repetitional harm has proven, in practice, ineffective at preventing malpractice.

This isn’t purely theoretical. It has happened repeated in recent history. Arthur Andersen signed off on obvious accounting fraud at Enron due to conflicts of interest. During the GFC, credit ratings companies graded low quality MBS derived securities as ‘triple A’ without bothering perform anything beyond a cursory examination.

Now imagine what would happen if every rando could start playing in the private markets. Well you don’t have to imagine too hard, we did a natural experiment not long ago with crypto currencies. What did we get? Shameless pump and dump schemes organised openly on social media, pyramid schemes, vapourware ICOs, and all manner of other dodgy dealings.

One reason these scams were so hard to stop was that so many unsophisticated scammers and scammees people were involved. The wealth requirement at least reduces the numbers of people involved to a somewhat manageable level. I do agree though, it’d be nice to have a more equitable way to do this. I think this action from the SEC is an important step towards that as it now opens the doors to qualified people that might otherwise fail the wealth test.

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#239
post #36

These are good steps, but abolishing all wealth-tests entirely would still be better. There's no wealth-test that prevents a person from losing all their money in highly-leveraged investments - from real-estate to fancy public-market securities. (Over-leveraging into real estate is practically encouraged by public policy.) There's no wealth test against putting all one's cash into gambling, which can be arbitrarily w…

Agree it's paternalistic, but you really want to educate yourself whatever the requirements. https://www.macrovoices.com/aia/218-accredited-investor-acad...

Re: SEC Modernizes the Accredited Investor Definition

#240
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a variant of this framing that doesn't also argue against all securities regulation and a return to the status quo ante of the Great Depression? Because the Accredited Investor standard essentially bypasses securities disclosure laws. Without it, every company would obtain the benefits of being public company, with none of the associated obligations.

How about Matt Levine's "Certificate of Dumb Investment"? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-24/earnin... ----- 1. Anyone can invest all they want in a diversified portfolio of approved investments (non-penny-stock public companies, mutual funds and exchange-traded funds with modest fees, insured bank accounts, etc.). 2. Anyone can also invest in any other dumb investment; you just have to go to the l…

The Wikipedia page on accredited investors had the "big boy letter" in the related links, which I thought was funny. It appears to be a less bombastic version of the concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_boy_letter
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