Earlier quoted context omitted.
It seems to have worked out at least semi-well? A lot less software on Windows requires admin permissions than did pre-Vista?
Having admin privileges doesn’t matter. Any software you install still has read and write permissions to all of your files, can encrypt your files (ransomware) can read your contacts (which hasn’t changed since the ILoveYou days in the early 2000s), etc.
Rethinking the App Store
301–310 of 350 posts
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
>OK, but right now as a user I have a choice: I can choose an ecosystem supported in part by a 30% tax on apps, or I can choose an ecosystem supported mainly by advertising. If Apple is forced to allow other stores, I lose that choice. I'm not sure that follows. Can you elaborate on why you would "lose that choice"?
A sufficiently powerful company or group could promote a third party app store by negotiating exclusive deals. Imagine a "EpicTwitBook" store being the only way to get Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter and Fortnite. Previously those apps were forced to make concessions to be on the iOS store, and I could download "Instagram, the version that makes Apple happy" app. But now, that version of the app is gone! I google "Why i…
My vision of an alternate app store still involves largely adhering to Apples rules for app approval. Except that an alternate store could have a different commission structure and in-store "experience".
For example, an alternate store could differentiate on search features, curation, free trials, ratings systems, bundles, periodic sales, developer interaction, developer support and (optionally of course) social recommendations. Exclusivity could even be forbidden.
In this scenario, Apple could still set the rules for App approval (with some oversight) and earn a fair commission (%5 to %10?) on transactions. It would still be profitable for Apple but encourage innovation and competition in the actual "stores".
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess I'm so used to dismissing the "Play Protect" dialog I completely forgot about it, you're right about it, it is annoying. But I think asking the user to signal agreement before installing and especially allowing another app store is the right way, given how sensitive it is. Maybe it should be made easier, but it's far less onerous than the Apple case. Steam doesn't do the API review/sandboxing component of App…
> But I think asking the user to signal agreement before installing and especially allowing another app store is the right way, given how sensitive it is. Maybe it should be made easier, but it's far less onerous than the Apple case. I don't think so. That's mostly FUD in my opinion, since apps installed from Google Play can do the exact same amount of evil stuff as anything downloaded from an external site. Since An…
Well, if a malicious app store application existed, I'd imagine it would work via social engineering and sending the user a different package than the user wanted. The user will be convinced to override the sandboxing, e.g. by giving permissions to install a 'new version of WhatApp', but the store app will actually be installing something else with the given permissions. That's a bit easier compared to other apps where the user doesn't expect to install anything. (Perhaps I'm missing a clever way to deal with these possibilities?)
I don't think that the risk requires banning 3rd party app stores. In practice we see the risk is very low. I have little worry about F-Droid, and I'm sure that the Samsung/Amazon stores are as secure as Apple/Google. But I think a bit of warning is justified.
>True that Steam is kind of questionable when it comes to security, but that's more the fault of the desktop operating systems which don't have sandboxing built-in.
Debians/Ubuntus have (optional) AppArmor, and latest Windows 10 Pro+ has an sandbox which will work with Win32 apps. It's starting to become built-in, even if not yet. It'd would still take a lot of work.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#304I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…
I'm on the same opinion, once the device is mine I should be able to install whatever I want. What would happen if I couldn't install the software I want on a desktop device? I really don't get how apple has survived so long with such a tight leash on IOS.
But I buy Apple. For myself, my parents, and I recommend to relatives etc. The tight leash is a feature not a limitation. I know if I set up an iPhone or iPad for my mum the apps aren't going to try charging her credit card or installing bloatware and so on.
The tight integration between all the services is a plus as well - something I just don't trust on other devices. Using the parent example again, my mum doesn't need to understand iCloud syncing, she just knows that all her photos are safe on the device and will show up on the computer.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For me the biggest problem is Apple deciding what/whose apps ios (and macos, given the recent code signing requirements coming with mac silicon...) users are permitted to use. Thats FUD. The release notes even address it "This new behavior doesn’t change the long-established policy that our users and developers can run arbitrary code on their Macs, and is designed to simplify the execution policies on Apple silicon…
Arbitrary code, not binaries. You can run arbitrary code through a compiler (which gets signed automatically when it gets linked) and then run it, or you can run arbitrary code through an (already signed) interpreter. You CANNOT run an unsigned binary on silicon, but I totally understand your confusion given their statement. Edit: To clarify further, you cant run an ARM binary - x86 apps going through rosetta (curren…
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with this. The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. The App Store as it stands has completely stagnated to the point where it’s useless to me outside of actually downloading or buying an app. It’s been years since I’ve been able to discover new apps though it, now relying for…
>Microsoft got into trouble for bundling a web browser, But to clarify, Microsoft ultimately won the case on appeal and had the initial ruling against them overturned.[1] So in the final verdict, MS did not get into trouble for bundling the browser. In 2001, the DOJ settlement didn't force Microsoft to include Netscape Navigator or any other 3rd-party software on their standard desktop. The developers in 2020 really…
This is an oversimplification of the appeal, as while the penalty against Microsoft was overturned, the appeals court did affirm several of the antitrust violations against Microsoft. In particular:
1. The appeals court affirmed that Microsoft's license restrictions preventing OEMs from pre-installing alternate browsers violated the Sherman Act.
2. The appeals court found that Microsoft's technical integration of IE and Windows was not a violation of the Sherman Act because Microsoft offered legitimate justification for why the integration was necessary. (When a defendant offers a legitimate justification the burden of proof shifts back to the plaintiff to show that the anticompetitive effect outweighs the justification. In this case the appeals court found the DOJ failed to do this.)
3. The appeals court affirmed that Microsoft's deals with ISPs to promote IE at the expense of other browsers violated the Sherman Act.
4. The appeals court affirmed that Microsoft's deal with Apple to bundle IE with Mac OS in exchange for the development of the Mac version of Office violated the Sherman Act. (Bill Gates threatened to pull Office for Mac if Mac OS bundled Netscape instead of IE.)
5. The appeals court did not actually address whether tying IE to Windows was an antitrust violation or not. They concluded that it could not be a per se violation, and the issue was remanded back to the district court for further analysis under the rule of reason which would have required additional proceedings, which never happened as Microsoft and the DOJ eventually settled.
6. The appeals court found that the DOJ failed to prove their claim that Microsoft attempted to monopolize the browser market, largely because they failed to provide sufficient evidence that Microsoft had a "dangerous probability" of success.
Finally, the reason the penalty was overturned by the appeals court largely had to do with the district court judge not following the correct legal procedures and failing to reasonably justify why such a large penalty (breaking up the company) was warranted. Plus they were really unhappy with that judge going and talking to the media about the case.
Yes, ultimately Microsoft was not broken up. After Bush was elected, DOJ policy changed and they decided to no longer pursue the breakup. But it's a bit misleading to say they won the appeal. It's more like: they won a couple claims, they lost a bunch of claims, and the overall penalty was deemed too harsh.
(Note: I skipped some details but the full text of the appeal is an interesting read: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=179876183890909...)
---
That all being said, it's worth noting that most of the violations affirmed were related to Microsoft's attempts to unlawfully maintain their operating system monopoly which at the time had over 95% market share, not due to their attempts to dominate the browser market. And it's possible that if they had merely included IE with Windows and not taken extra actions to force other companies (OEMs, ISPs, Apple) to bundle IE over Netscape, they may not have have been found liable at all.
As applied to the current situation with Apple, it's unlikely that Apple will be exposed to the same liability because they simply don't have the level of monopoly power that Microsoft did at the time.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
At a micro level I can understand this point, but the proper functioning of markets requires competition. You likely wouldn't advocate one supermarket, one car company or one hardware manufacturer. Even if you would prefer to use Apple's Store it's wrong to deny others (both producers and consumers) free choice.
I am looking at with a different perspective: I am thinking Apple is like a union for their users. And they are regulating developers and they have huge negotiating power because they are gateway to user’s phone. I don’t see them as market participant, I more likely see them as market regulator.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. It's hard for me to reconcile this, and I keep seeing that 3rd party app stores would be better for users, but it all seems very handwavy. You would think this would be an easy point to prove as Android has had alternative app stores for yea…
> You would think this would be an easy point to prove as Android has had alternative app stores for years, but there seem to be no winners there. I'm not sure how having to download app specific app stores (i.e. Epic's app store) is better for anyone except for Epic. Let's start with one point. Third party stores don't have to be popular in order for them to be beneficial, because their existence causes the dominant…
I see no evidence of Epic passing savings to the consumer in this scenario. Unless by customer you mean stock holder in which case the fight is about which stock holders get paid.
Edit: unless you are referring to a temporary PR sale where they were still paying the 30% cut in many cases.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#309This quote is relevant: The problem for Epic — and, I suppose, for me — is that to this observer it seems exceedingly likely that Apple is going to win this case, last night’s decision notwithstanding. Current Supreme Court jurisprudence is very clear that businesses — including monopolies — have no duty to deal with third parties, and if they do choose to deal with them (or are even compelled to), that they can choo…
> A judge ruling that Apple must allow third-party in-app payment systems is a somewhat realistic outcome, whereas a judge ruling that Apple must permit third-parties to run their own app stores is probably a non-starter. I gather judges really don't like to impose technical requirements - especially in a fast-moving industry like this. Ordering Apple to make the extensive changes required to allow for some kind of s…
Yes, the court in the Microsoft appeal explicitly said this.
> Microsoft was convicted of monopoly abuse by simply bundling Internet Explorer with Windows
Not quite. As I explain in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24289455) Microsoft's problem is that they forced other companies (OEMs, ISPs, and Apple) to bundle IE at the expense of other browsers. Whether the sole act of bundling IE with Windows would have been itself an antitrust violation was not actually addressed by the court. Microsoft also had a much higher market share (95%) than Apple currently does.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
95% of the public don’t even know what GitHub is. The vast majority of people aren’t going to run patches a developer posted there. Anyway, the argument was that the Apple app store was stifling app development. In your reply you yourself say the apps on the Google store are “Maybe not quite as high” quality.
I don't see why we can't have things if they aren't useful to 5% of the population and don't harm the rest. Also the "maybe not as high" comment was about security because you can make an argument that the human review is better. However there doesn't seem to be overwhelming evidence on either side comparing human review to mostly automated.