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How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

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171–180 of 230 posts

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specific to the pandemic, no one wants to wear a mask. This is another one of those situations where the crazies are driving the conversation, because they are much louder than their actual portion of the population. According to Gallup the portion of their panel who “never” wear a mask outside of their home is 10%, while those who “rarely” wear a mask is 2%. The vast majority of the population wears masks “always”…

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07

That's a nice sentiment, but it's built on the idea that one should just ignore the crazies and they'll automatically be marginalized. It doesn't address the situation where one big group decides to weaponize its finge contingent, or where an angry fringe forces itself into what was intended to be a less heated conversations, as in this recent example: https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/905785548/unmasked-protesters...

They repeated the stunt approximately yesterday but one of the organizers was arrested this time; he handcuffed himself to a chair but didn't consider that it was on wheels, so they just rolled him out of the building. https://www.npr.org/2020/08/25/906046911/ammon-bundy-is-arre...

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#172
post #12
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I am puzzled when people say 'you should fight your battles in the courts, not through protests'. It has always been about who can afford better lawyers, who can win the war of attrition, and a whole lot of luck along the way. Quite a few articles have showed up on HN the past week that reinforce this.

Fighting battles through protests seems like it is mainly a case of who can afford better PR companies, win the war of attrition and has a whole lot of luck along the way. In addition, at least with a court case you can be sure public opinion doesn't just forget about it in a few months and moves on to the next hot item to protest.

The court case is capital fighting capital. If it's the government, then it's the public's capital vs. private capital. The government is often at a disadvantage in this situation due to conflicts of interest and concerns over funds, as private capital is often far richer than anything the government can put forward.

Proper protests etc. are direct action by the people against capital. There are still disadvantages, but they can be drowned out by simple numbers.

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#173
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, cuz that how every social change occurred in the world. Via two people talking in the room... Give me a break, legal system never changes itself. From Ghandi, Bolshevik revolution, Solidarity, French revolution to MLK. Change only occurs due to mass civil dissonance or armed revolutions. Never because you talk in a court and all people in power agreed you make sense.

You're arguing a different point than I made. Legal systems are as averse to change as the large masses of society (ie very averse). They do move eventually btw, but it's more on the scale of decades than months. What I was getting at is that protesting is not a very reliable way to effect change either. The "other side" of any protest is also trying to change the narrative and can often just wait out the protests. L…

Protesting is very effective when you do actual direct action and civil disobedience. Americans have gotten used to running ignorable police-sanctioned parades and calling them protests.

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#174
post #13

I never understand why doctors are not blamed for prescribing these. Are doctors not supposed to be responsible for prescriptions? If they are not, should we stop allowing them to prescribe? Why don’t doctors unions throw out members who would claim to have been hoodwinked by pharmaceutical companies?

Shifting the blame to the doctors is/was one of the major strategies pursued by influencers working for the Sacklers. You're simply playing their game here (either knowingly or unknowingly).

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is though, that doctors shouldn't blindly trust whatever a manufacturer tells them, if the evidence right in front of their eyes says different. Just to be clear, you're advocating doctors eschewing published clinical data (including data from published trials and the FDA approval) on the basis of nonrandomized anecdotal data? The issue here is that the manufacturers committed fraud - falsifying and/or mis…

> The issue here is that the manufacturers committed fraud - falsifying and/or misrepresenting clinical data This is my point - the claims were BS. A number of doctors should have been raising a number of red flags, because their knowledge contradicted those claims, as did patient evidence right in front of their very eyes. I'm obviously not saying they should ignore or distrust all clinical data, but if they see suc…

> A number of doctors should have been raising a number of red flags, because their knowledge contradicted those claims

Purdue committed fraud, but they never made claims that were so outrageous that they would be prima facie false. (If that had been the case, Oxycontin would never have been approved in the first place). The problem wasn't that the claims were outrageously impossible; it's that the claims were wrong, and Purdue either falsified or misrepresented clinical data in order to convince doctors that Oxycontin was safer than it actually was.

> Patient evidence right in front of their eyes

Encouraging people to rely overly on anecdotal observations is incredibly dangerous, especially when most doctors who prescribe opioids don't prescribe them in such numbers that these issues would be readily visible to them in the first place.

Yes, there were a small number of doctors who did aggressively overprescribe and misprescribe Oxycontin. That was the result of a direct and explicit campaign by Purdue to identify and enable those doctors. Some of those doctors were prosecuted and/or did lose their licenses, but those doctors still only amounted to a small part of the opioid crisis.

> I'm obviously not saying they should ignore or distrust all clinical data, but if they see such massive discrepancies then they should be speaking up.

Most doctors weren't seeing massive discrepancies. We know the discrepancies exist now because there were lawsuits and prosecutions which revealed the specific fraudulent behavior that Purdue and others were engaged in. But without the benefit of hindsight, these issues simply weren't reasonably visible to a typical doctor - they were only visible at large scale to Purdue, who went out of their way to mislead everyone else about it.

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#176
post #164
post #13

I never understand why doctors are not blamed for prescribing these. Are doctors not supposed to be responsible for prescriptions? If they are not, should we stop allowing them to prescribe? Why don’t doctors unions throw out members who would claim to have been hoodwinked by pharmaceutical companies?

Of note, in california, every opiate rx is very rigidly traced in the CURES database. I'm sure there's some complicated technical way around it, but it's not a willy-nilly rx system, at least in CA. In general, the rule of thumb is if you need opiates, more that a simple vicodin or tramadol, we refer you to a pain management specialist.

In Florida, opioid prescriptions were recently as easy to get as a medical marijuana card in California before full legalization.[1] The drugs could then be smuggled by car to states with restrictive prescription tracing. The smugglers had legal protection because the prescription was in their name.

[1] https://floridadailypost.com/florida-pill-mills-gateway-opio...

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#177
post #170
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, completely different system. Same attitude, though.

I really don't understand what you mean by 'culture' and 'attitude'; please explain.

By culture and attitude, I do not mean the objective criteria defining the healthcare system. I mean how things go when you have a patient encounter. American patients are perceived as far more legally agressive and vindicative. True or not, this results in an overly defensive response from american MDs. Unfortunately, medicine has that in common with war that a dead patient is less problematic than an injured patient. Hence, the opiate crisis.

This is purely cultural. European patients and MDs are much less aggressive.

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#178
post #13

I never understand why doctors are not blamed for prescribing these. Are doctors not supposed to be responsible for prescriptions? If they are not, should we stop allowing them to prescribe? Why don’t doctors unions throw out members who would claim to have been hoodwinked by pharmaceutical companies?

It's because doctors and hospitals are increasingly evaluated based on patient satisfaction instead of patient outcomes. It's why you'll walk into a medical plaza lobby that looks like a 4-star hotel, with fountains and art on the wall, and why the doctor will write you a prescription for an absurd dose of narcotics after surgery. After you've been cut open, it's normal to be in some pain for a while, but if the doct…

Blame the doctors is part of the campaign to influence public opinion to save the Sacklers from the consequences of their actions. Find a different enemy to blame for everything. Just pay attention to the way the argument percolates through social media.

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#179
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oxycodone was first formulated in 1917, so it's not really "new". There are lots of FDA-approved drugs that are highly inappropriate for most patients. One of the reasons we tolerate the professional status of physicians is because of their purported expertise in prescribing these drugs safely. If they don't know the function and habit-forming potential of opioids, one might well question that expertise. They aren't…

> Oxycodone was first formulated in 1917, so it's not really "new" The drug being talked about was given a new time-release formulation which was described as less addictive. The drug company spent a lot of time and money distorting the image around addictiveness. Here's a list of things Purdue did: https://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/sites/ipham/conference...

I agree, go after the deep pockets. I sympathize with patients who became addicted to oxy, while at the same time I'm convinced that opioids should be available to those who need them. I'm glad I got some Demerol when I needed it. I even sympathize with physicians who weighed their patients' needs against the risks of addiction, carefully followed up on their oxy prescriptions, and still had some patients succumb to addiction. I don't sympathize with blanket statements like "doctors just trusted Purdue". Any physician who refilled an opioid prescription without asking the patient some blunt questions and being satisfied with the answers is a piss-poor physician.

Re: How the Sacklers shifted $10.8B of an opioid fortune built on OxyContin

#180
post #7

I am not american and I remember hearing about OxyCotin for more around 10 years. So I wonder why controling this problem which casued so many loses of lifes (not necessary deaths), took this long to be the target of the government. I also wonder was there one of these stupid political shows that US is used to them now that was stopping anyone to handle it. In the long legal battle I do not think this money is going…

It took so long because the Sacklers contributed to many causes and philanthropies favored by the elite, and because the Obama Administration simply did not care about midwestern White people dying. And, the Trump Administration does not care about anything at all.
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