Earlier quoted context omitted.
That argument doesn't make sense, because Apple isn't going to lower the sandboxing requirement for anyone, it's just going to provide an API to install an IPA. (Actually, that API already exists of course, they'll just remove the check that makes sure you're Apple when you call it.) Third parties' security practices have no bearing on how secure Apple makes their own platform–the parent comment is literally saying "…
A third party App Store by definition has permission to download other code. Android also has a sandbox. That didn’t prevent the security vulnerability from Fortnite.
Rethinking the App Store
211–220 of 350 posts
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with this. The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. The App Store as it stands has completely stagnated to the point where it’s useless to me outside of actually downloading or buying an app. It’s been years since I’ve been able to discover new apps though it, now relying for…
>Microsoft got into trouble for bundling a web browser, But to clarify, Microsoft ultimately won the case on appeal and had the initial ruling against them overturned.[1] So in the final verdict, MS did not get into trouble for bundling the browser. In 2001, the DOJ settlement didn't force Microsoft to include Netscape Navigator or any other 3rd-party software on their standard desktop. The developers in 2020 really…
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
A third party App Store by definition has permission to download other code. Android also has a sandbox. That didn’t prevent the security vulnerability from Fortnite.
I hate to say it, but did you read the article? Saying "Android has a sandbox" to my comment makes no sense in the context of the issue with Fornite's installer. The vulnerability there was specifically that the third-party app store did not run in a sufficiently sandboxed environment, allowing another application to swap out the app after it was downloaded but before it was installed.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I am thinking Apple is like a union for their users. While I'm decidedly not Epic's side on this I think this is a misleading and dangerous argument. In a union, members get to vote to change the rules to benefit the membership. Apple never asked for my input on App Store rules.
> Apple never asked for my input on App Store rules. But they really did. They asked "Walled garden, restrictive app publishing, no BS", or "Sideload to your heart's content", you choose! And Apple customers said "Walled garden, please and thank you!" This is a completely respectable choice -- but of course it is not everyone's choice! I was unintentionally (and unexpectedly) a unionized employee once. They didn't as…
No they didn't. Choosing whether there is a walled store and choosing what gets into the store are two different things. And on top of that, you didn't even get the first choice independent of a hundred other variables like hardware, operating system, app availability, the network effect of peers with iMessage etc.
To really drive this home, keep in mind that the same argument could be applied to giving Comcast control over which websites and video streaming services you can use. If you don't like it, just choose to move out of their service area. So if you choose to subscribe to Comcast then you must want that, right?
> They didn't ask me to ratify their agenda, but they did require me to pay dues!
Actually they did. Union members get to elect the union leadership. Apple customers don't get to elect the Apple leadership. And if a union set your union dues at 30% of your salary, how long do you think it would take for them to get voted out?
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#215The most important changes Apple needs to make would not cost them a single line of code- they just get rid of their policy to require consistent pricing across all platforms, and allow promotion/linking of external (i.e. not on iOS) payment sources. If Spotify could charge +30% for a subscription purchased through the App store, and include a link to their main sign up page where subscriptions are regular price, eve…
That is exactly what Epic was doing. They were allowing people to make purchases at a 20% discount through a web app of digital content that could appear in iPhone App. And Apple took their app down. It's not the pricing that Apple opposed, its that you could buy it through another method. How can you have the pricing changes you propose if Apple forbids selling interactive content for their platform through any othe…
If you can get your customers to buy your stuff on your own with your own marketing not using Apple's devices then you win and get to keep the 30% but if you use your app to sell to a customer then Apple gets a cut.
> Apple forbids selling interactive content for their platform
This isn't entirely true. If you make a game that sells in-game currency then you can get around the 30% by having users buy your currency packs on your website. But you can't use your app to direct them there. And if you're like "that would be a death-knell for any game" then you understand why Apple charges and premium for it.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which official app store won on Windows? AFAIK, Steam is the number one store for games, and people buy their apps from vendors directly (example: Adobe, Autodesk, even Microsoft). The Windows app store was dead on arrival. And linux package managers aren't app stores. They're mostly meant for system libraries and core applications, although some devs do distribute their (free) apps through it. In any case, Linux is…
In Windows the old method was installing exe files, and it remains the most popular - but otherwise the only app store worth mentioning is the MS one (on Steam in a moment). In Linux, package managers can and do include other apps (not all of course), and just about everything that can be installed from them gets priority from users - and alternative repos get the scraps. The option isn't hidden on android at all, it…
I can't. If I'm going to distribute my apps outside of Google Play, I need to tell my potential customers to crawl through their phone's settings page, clicking through various menus, then ignore the scary warnings that strongly imply I'm about to infect them with malware and steal all of their personal data. And I would have to do that in every single language I want to support, and of course would lose sales from people who don't want to bother following these long instructions, especially since they have to close their web browser (and hide the written instructions) to actually do it. And I also have increased support costs because I need to respond to emails from people who couldn't figure out how to do it (in all languages), and I have to constantly worry about being blocked by the "Play Protect" program, which scans apps installed outside of Google Play, sends them to Google's servers, and then decides to block them at Google's discretion. And if I happen to get big enough to where I potentially become a competitive threat to Google, then I have to worry about their "white hat" hit squad finding exploits in my software and sending it to major news outlets to ~~tarnish my reputation~~ I mean protect users.
Or I can avoid all of those Google-created problems by giving Google 30% of my business.
So while technically you could distribute your apps outside of Google Play, it is not practical at all thanks to all of the anti-competitive barriers Google has put up. Anyone who thinks that Android is a healthy environment for competition is being naive, or has no experience with consumer products.
> * Steam is a very specialized case: Not quite an app store [Apple credits itself with inventing the App Store, despite Steam existing since 2003, so Apple agrees with me on this], but they all but created the Linux game market, and got in before the Windows Store was created. Yea, if you create the market or get in in advance or on stuff the official store doesn't include, you can survive, but the general rule is that the official App Store wins.
What do you mean? Steam is 100% an app store. It's a store where they sell applications (although mostly games). Also, Steam was not at all the first game/app store on Windows or Linux. It was simply the best back in the day; so good in fact that it beat straight up piracy. Even today they're pretty great, despite the 30% cut (although that situation is completely different to the one Apple and Google are in)
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate to say it, but did you read the article? Saying "Android has a sandbox" to my comment makes no sense in the context of the issue with Fornite's installer. The vulnerability there was specifically that the third-party app store did not run in a sufficiently sandboxed environment, allowing another application to swap out the app after it was downloaded but before it was installed.
So won’t the same people be screaming if Apple puts too tight of restrictions on a third party App Store? If Apple has to approve third party app stores, would people be happy?
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#218The most important changes Apple needs to make would not cost them a single line of code- they just get rid of their policy to require consistent pricing across all platforms, and allow promotion/linking of external (i.e. not on iOS) payment sources. If Spotify could charge +30% for a subscription purchased through the App store, and include a link to their main sign up page where subscriptions are regular price, eve…
I agree, but Apple will never go for this unless forced to for obvious reasons. As a cross-platform developer, the degree to which Apple has scrutinized our app and made sure there's not so much as a hint of the fact that you can buy the product on the web is totally nuts.
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think people using Cydia had a pretty good idea of what they were doing.
Most of them probably did, because it was generally difficult to jailbreak the phone and there wasn't much reason to do so unless you were a hobbyist. App piracy was definitely a thing though, and I bet there were some people who did it because a friend told them they can get free apps, only to end up installing stuff that made the phone very buggy (which was definitely easy to do). It's easy to say "well that's just…
Re: Rethinking the App Store
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Microsoft got into trouble for bundling a web browser, But to clarify, Microsoft ultimately won the case on appeal and had the initial ruling against them overturned.[1] So in the final verdict, MS did not get into trouble for bundling the browser. In 2001, the DOJ settlement didn't force Microsoft to include Netscape Navigator or any other 3rd-party software on their standard desktop. The developers in 2020 really…
There is a huge difference here; there was never a legal issue with bundling IE. The problem was that MSFT threatened to withdraw OEM licensing for companies that bundled alternative browsers with Windows. Monopoly wasn't the issue. Abusing the monopoly (desktop OS) to leverage influence on another market segment (web browsers) is what go them into trouble.
I suppose 20+ years has erased a collective memory of the conflicts with IE.
Here is a relevant 1998 excerpt[1] from DOJ's own official website:
>The Department today filed a motion seeking a preliminary injunction that would:
>-- Require that if Microsoft insists on including its browser on Windows 98, it must also include Netscape's browser so that consumers will have a real choice. Computer manufacturers would have the option of deleting either browser. If Microsoft does not want to include Netscape, it must unbundle its own browser and let it compete on the merits.
As we now know from the 2001 final settlement, the above scenario didn't happen and Microsoft won that IE battle.
Can one do a mental search & replace with s/Microsoft/Apple/ and s/Netscape/Epic/ such as:
"Require that if Apple insists on including its App Store on iPhones, it must also include Epic App Store so that consumers will have a real choice."
If Epic's lawyers (not even the intimidating government DOJ lawyers this time but just a private video game company's lawyers) want to argue the same idea as forcing Netscape onto IE, what would be the new legal argument this time? The previous one failed.
EDIT to sbuk's reply about context: your excerpt trying to show context is itself also missing context. That part about PC manufacturers licensing was the past actions that got the DOJ up to that point of hauling them into court. My excerpt was about the DOJ's proposed future remedy (e.g. must unbundle IE) to reduce Microsoft's future monopoly power -- and that didn't happen. See the very next bullet point below your "context":
>• Microsoft now intends to tie unlawfully its IE Internet browser software to its new Windows 98 operating system, the successor to Windows 95.
DOJ wanted to stop the future IE bundling to Windows 98. They failed.
[1] https://www.justice.gov/archive/atr/public/press_releases/19...