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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#531

Post by bnj »

spott wrote: post #500
shados wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Court doubts that an expert would suggest a zero percent alternative It's unfortunate that the percentage cut ends up overshadowing the real antitrust issue, which is that Apple (and Google) essentially has the power to make or break any arbitrary business that relies on their platform. They base it on vague and loosely enforced rules, which means companies never know if tomorrow is the end. Having a locked pla…

I mean the Microsoft Store charges 30% for games, Google play is 30%, Steam is 30%, I'm sure there are app stores I'm not thinking of that charge 30%. It seems to be the industry standard App Store cut.

Seems like it hints at — is price fixing the right form of anti-competitive behavior when players mutually agree not to compete?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#532

Post by martin8412 »

aptgetrekt wrote: post #474
mlindner wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to sign your code before being able to write your code.

I made a Mac app a few weeks ago that got to the front page here on HN[1]. It isn't notarized by Apple since I don't want to pay Apple just so I can give my work away for free that fixes something that shouldn't be an issue in their OS in the first place. When users run the app for the first time, they get a warning[2]. For that kind of popup to happen when anyone tries to use anything by Epic would almost certainly…

How is this any different from Windows? If your code is not signed with an EV code signing certificate, a similar warning will be shown on Windows. The difference is that, that certificate will set you back 500-600 USD a year. Though I believe you can obtain "trusted" status without a cert through people using your software and not reporting it as malware.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#533

Post by causality0 »

dwaite wrote: post #439
causality0 wrote: post #5

A victory for sanity. Apple threatening developmental licenses and anyone who used the Unreal Engine was nothing short of mafia-esque, and just as obviously Fortnite being restored to the app store is a matter for Epic's lawsuit against apple.

Apple never threatened the developmental licenses of anyone using the Unreal Engine. They said they would remove all Epic access to developer program tools (e.g. beta access to operating systems and Xcode) and to partner programs (presumably for advance hardware testing). This would have a second-hand effect on Epic's ability to provide timely updates to their engine and remain competitive to alternatives like Unreal…

They threatened the supply chain. Would they do that to a normal developer? If you're a developer and one of your apps is found to violate an app store rule does Apple remove not only that app but also all your developer credentials and licenses? I imagine Apple just removes that app do they not?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#534

Post by martin8412 »

kergonath wrote: post #362
gtsteve wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I don't think they're doomed, but I think this measure will provide ammunition to those who want to sideload apps and make their own app stores, which is presumably what Epic wants. I think this has been inevitable for some time, but I think by making this mistake they have they they've accelerated the process and damaged their monopoly far earlier than they had to. Note: Perhaps I am just seeing what I…

You might be right; in any case we won’t see it for a while. I think reform of the AppStore is overdue. Some of the rules are counterproductive and with enough of a grey area so that their implementation looks capricious at times. But man, Tim Sweeney is such an arsehole, and Epic’s behaviour is so self-serving...

Yea.. Epic is the company using information provided by their customers to develop competing products.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#535

Post by bshanks »

alkonaut wrote: post #441
henryfjordan wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not? Easy: a link off their site doesn't earn them any money. They want to you stay on their domain.

Is there a news site that does the opposite? Always cites sources, provide ample links throughout text? that’s the site I’d subscribe to.

I dunno about always, but in this particular case The Verge hyperlinked to the order in the first sentence of their article: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/25/21400240/epic-apple-rulin...

(and the greatgrandparent comment has the hyperlink from The Verge)

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#536

Post by parasubvert »

wvenable wrote: post #338
parasubvert wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the crux of the matter: is it anticompetitive to setup an ecosystem where you always get a cut? Generally, historically, no, this is not anticompetitive, especially given there is another ecosystem with far more market share (but maybe not profitability because more people spend money on iOS apps). Inserting yourself to take a cut for a service or a key component is good business practice, and built the empir…

What's more scary is not that a single company or group of companies will be a permanent fixture but rather that this model of computing will be permanent! If you would have told me 20 years ago that the creator of an operating system would take a 30% cut of every piece of software sold, I would have thought you crazy. If you would have told me Apple or Microsoft would dictate to me what software I could run, I would…

As software users, we definitely have voted with our wallets to say that properly executed vertical integration (As Apple has done), and the end to end UX control that comes with it, are highly desirable. The iPhone is arguably (and surprisingly) the most successful non-food/drug product line in human history by unit sales, revenue, or profits. The 30% cut and ecosystem control are likely a feature, not a bug. The user experience and security of the horizontally open market PC was pretty bad until Microsoft was forced to invest.

As ISVs, clearly there are major downsides to this state of affairs. But I’m not sure I wish for the days where Microsoft reigned and would just put you out of business on a whim.

I don’t think Microsoft’s antitrust consent decree had as much of an impact as some think, it was more about entrepreneurship and new tech (largely the iPhone! But also Amazon, Facebook, and Google) that reduced their clout.

I don’t think Apple will bring this control to MacOS; you can’t put genies back into bottles.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#537

Post by misnome »

causality0 wrote: post #533
dwaite wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple never threatened the developmental licenses of anyone using the Unreal Engine. They said they would remove all Epic access to developer program tools (e.g. beta access to operating systems and Xcode) and to partner programs (presumably for advance hardware testing). This would have a second-hand effect on Epic's ability to provide timely updates to their engine and remain competitive to alternatives like Unreal…

They threatened the supply chain. Would they do that to a normal developer? If you're a developer and one of your apps is found to violate an app store rule does Apple remove not only that app but also all your developer credentials and licenses? I imagine Apple just removes that app do they not?

Not for normal violations, but in cases where developers have deliberately snuck in stuff against the rules they’ve banned accounts before.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#538

Post by wvenable »

parasubvert wrote: post #536
wvenable wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more scary is not that a single company or group of companies will be a permanent fixture but rather that this model of computing will be permanent! If you would have told me 20 years ago that the creator of an operating system would take a 30% cut of every piece of software sold, I would have thought you crazy. If you would have told me Apple or Microsoft would dictate to me what software I could run, I would…

As software users, we definitely have voted with our wallets to say that properly executed vertical integration (As Apple has done), and the end to end UX control that comes with it, are highly desirable. The iPhone is arguably (and surprisingly) the most successful non-food/drug product line in human history by unit sales, revenue, or profits. The 30% cut and ecosystem control are likely a feature, not a bug. The us…

> The 30% cut and ecosystem control are likely a feature, not a bug.

The only feature I can see for this is making Apple a multi-trillion dollar company. Apple is profiting massively off of our labor and yes, we have been so far happy to give that to them, but perhaps now is the time to revisit that relationship.

With Apple abusing their control to deny access to cloud gaming maybe this success is a Faustian deal.

> I don’t think Apple will bring this control to MacOS

I think it will be a function of going to Apple silicon.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#539

Post by Zenbit_UX »

shados wrote: post #527
spott wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the Microsoft Store charges 30% for games, Google play is 30%, Steam is 30%, I'm sure there are app stores I'm not thinking of that charge 30%. It seems to be the industry standard App Store cut.

Yeah, the cut is basically irrelevant. It's the power Apple/Google holds that's a problem.

No, it's highly relevant.

Consider Spotify vs Apple music. If Spotify has to charge X + 30% to subscriber's on iPhone in order to make X then they absolutely can't compete on price if Apple simply charges X.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#540

Post by nodamage »

bnj wrote: post #531
spott wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the Microsoft Store charges 30% for games, Google play is 30%, Steam is 30%, I'm sure there are app stores I'm not thinking of that charge 30%. It seems to be the industry standard App Store cut.

Seems like it hints at — is price fixing the right form of anti-competitive behavior when players mutually agree not to compete?

Companies are free to set their own prices. Setting a price that matches your competitor's price is a standard business practice and is not considered price fixing as long as there was no coordination with the competitor.

In other words:

1. If Apple went and talked to Google and Microsoft and they all agreed to set the price to 30%, that would be price fixing.

2. If Apple looked at Microsoft and saw that they had set their price to 30% and decided they wanted to do that too, that is not price fixing.

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