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Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

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111–120 of 121 posts

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#111
post #108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you never heard the phrase "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"? Yes, it's a meaningless cliche which is often untrue (I've had many free lunches myself). But "free/gratis" does have a definition to mean "without cost or payment", e.g. how much it costs to acquire/download every version of iOS going back a decade. Have you ever heard of alternative business models? Try Googling Android, Tizen OS, Web OS…

> I've had many free lunches myself So the other part did not want anything from you, what was the purpose of the free lunch then? Not sure why you are looking at download costs, how about the employee costs who develop IOS. If you googled those business models you will understand that there is no free lunch, similarly there isnt one with IOS, you pay for it when you buy the device. > Because Apple has to support the…

> what was the purpose of the free lunch then?

A completely irrelevant point, just like this tired cliche.

> Not sure why you are looking at download costs, how about the employee costs who develop IOS.

The cost to the end user is how much it costs them to download/acquire iOS, which is $0, for all versions & updates, previous, current & future. The employee costs is part of the Apple's massive investment into creating & maintaining iOS, an investment they're able recuperate from App Store revenue.

Which is exactly my point, it would've cost Apple billions to develop & maintain iOS over its lifetime yet they give it away for free because they're able to collect revenue for alternative revenue streams such as the App Store.

> If you googled those business models you will understand that there is no free lunch, similarly there isnt one with IOS, you pay for it when you buy the device.

Your forced cliche keeps failing. Android like iOS doesn't have a price because there isn't one, there is $0 cost to the end user, maintaining an ubiquitous dominant mobile OS generates incomes through alternative revenue sources - shouldn't be a surprise to anyone they both have App Stores that generates revenue from the same standard Royalty %.

> Apple has no problems when IOS does not run "acceptably"

Of course they do, they care deeply about UX and maintaining high Customer satisfaction & Brand value which is always at industry highs, they'll never throw a link to new OS's and say we don't support & have never tested this on legacy hardware older than 5 years, but feel free to try installing the latest software on inadequate devices yourself - it may not run & may brick your device, but we don't care because it's years out of warranty so it's no longer our problem! No, just like their other OS's they'll enforce the minimum hardware it can run adequately on.

> infact they make it a feature so that IOS runs slow on older phones so that people will buy new phones to pay for IOS.

Not only are your cliches bad, but so are your debunked conspiracy theories! Also you can't pay for iOS.

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#112
..."What was striking about all of these apps is that only three of them functioned primarily on an iPhone; in the vast majority of cases Apple was demanding in-app purchase offerings for functionality that was largely not dependent on an iPhone:"

https://stratechery.com/2020/rethinking-the-app-store/

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that’s exactly why I have an Apple device. No, wait, not that I’m stupid. Though I’m sure some people would call me that. It’s that they make the decisions for me. I’m specifically paying a premium to delegate the responsibility for making those decisions to them. I spent years running Nexus devices (since before they were Nexus... still have my ADP1 in a drawer) on Cyanogenmod and LineageOS. At some point I…

But those aren't mutually exclusive. You can stay in the walled garden if you wish, and people who are comfortable with the risk can go outside. Choice; something Apple thinks its users are incapable of making sensibly.

Or, again, many people have made that choice and are fine with the situation. If you don't want the locked down device you can just not buy an Apple device?

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#114
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe they were specifically targeting Unreal Engine, it just got caught in the cross fire and Apple didn't really care. Apple wanted to terminate all the dev accounts belonging to Epic which "just to happens" to include Unreal.

From a comment by onion2k in the other HN thread: > This is a quote from the letter that Apple sent to Epic; >> If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities:" >> [...] >> - Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performan…

Yes, I've read that.

What they're calling out is that Apple engineers will no longer prioritise improving the performance of Unreal on macOS and iOS. This is kinda outside the developer agreeement.

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#115
Not sure if somebody did that bet. So I just put it here. I think the best outcome could be when Apple be forced to allow bigger number of devices under TestFlight - which is the way to install apps not from AppStore. Apple would probably charge extra for that like $1 per device. No virtual goods outside of apple payment system, same 30%.

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#116

Not sure if somebody did that bet. So I just put it here. I think the best outcome could be when Apple be forced to allow bigger number of devices under TestFlight - which is the way to install apps not from AppStore. Apple would probably charge extra for that like $1 per device. No virtual goods outside of apple payment system, same 30%.

The best outcome would be for Apple to allow alternate stores into iOS, like Cydia.

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#117
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's your choice, but forcing that onto everyone is anti-competitive.

How is that being forced on everyone? E. g. I do not use Steam, so they can do whatever they want, it would have zero effect on me.

The action that triggered these events is that Epic chose to sell some items at a higher price via the Apple store to cover the 30% "tax" and make it clearer to consumers that they are paying a premium to the middleman, or at a lower price via in-game currency (which could be purchased elsewhere) directly in the game.

Offering this consumer choice is what lead to Fortnite being banned.

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#118
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that seemed to be the predictable outcome. But then I cannot understand what was Apple trying to do. What is their strategy here, why be so agressive toward Epic's Unreal Engine? It feels as if they wanted to be proven wrong, but I don't understand why they would do this. If someone has some insights to share, I would be interested.

I don't believe they were specifically targeting Unreal Engine, it just got caught in the cross fire and Apple didn't really care. Apple wanted to terminate all the dev accounts belonging to Epic which "just to happens" to include Unreal.

What is the text in the agreement that blocks developers from building against it though?

If a third party developer uses an open source library instead of Unreal, must that library belong to an entity that signed an agreement with Apple or the whole app is banned by default?

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#119
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that being forced on everyone? E. g. I do not use Steam, so they can do whatever they want, it would have zero effect on me.

Steam isn't manufacturing computers. This is about Apple the computer manufacturer. It's unfair for them to lock their computers/phones down so people can't install software without Apple's permission. The App Store is more or less a red herring here (relevant only to the 30% fee being too much).

Is it though? There's no legal precedent that would allow for software vendors to force device manufacturers to allow their software to be run on the manufacturer's hardware. Otherwise we'd see Android on iPhones, legally-mandated Facebook integration on everything, custom car firmware etc.

Re: Epic vs. Apple: Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Motion for TRO [pdf]

#120
post #111
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had many free lunches myself So the other part did not want anything from you, what was the purpose of the free lunch then? Not sure why you are looking at download costs, how about the employee costs who develop IOS. If you googled those business models you will understand that there is no free lunch, similarly there isnt one with IOS, you pay for it when you buy the device. > Because Apple has to support the…

> what was the purpose of the free lunch then? A completely irrelevant point, just like this tired cliche. > Not sure why you are looking at download costs, how about the employee costs who develop IOS. The cost to the end user is how much it costs them to download/acquire iOS, which is $0, for all versions & updates, previous, current & future. The employee costs is part of the Apple's massive investment into creati…

> A completely irrelevant point, just like this tired cliche.

Then what was the point of bringing that irrelevant point?

>they're able to collect revenue for alternative revenue streams such as the App Store.

Did Apple tell you that, can you give some sources for your claims. They might be doing that but also pass the cost to the user when the user purchases the device.

> The cost to the end user is how much it costs them to download/acquire iOS, which is $0

And we are back to the starting position, show me where can I buy Apple hardware without the OS, if you cannot show me that then you cannot say IOS is free, the cost is included in the device price.

> maintaining high Customer satisfaction

Then why did they intentionally make old devices run very slow?

Has it ever occurred to you that they did that intentionally to force users to upgrade so that they can get new revenue for IOS and the hardware?

> Also you can't pay for iOS.

Yes because the price is included in the hardware.

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