I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…
Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
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Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#12I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…
> important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy No, I don't think we should just "realize" that. By all means, let's have a discussion; but to accept a priori that some form of surveillance is acceptable reeks of an outlook that has already given up. We should not be fearful and dependent, but rather willing to accept danger as the price…
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#13I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#14“Israel is the 6th - unofficial and undeclared - member of 5 eyes” https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/02/09/nsa-maintains-...
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#15I think it is important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy. We should strive to have proper checks and balances on those powers rather than pretend they are not useful or do not exist. With proper checks surveillance can greatly improve national security but it should be kept to that domain and we should seek to prevent abuses. I think u…
There are likely forms of eugenics that have the same cost/benefit characteristics as the forms of surveillance to which we've alluded. We know that the legalization of abortion has the long-term effect of reducing crime, so what about laws that make abortions easier to access when the fetus has certain genetic characteristics associated with disabilities? Or with psychopathy? "NO!" is the resounding response. "THAT'S EVIL!" And a good thing too, because it's probably the only reliably way to hold the line against policies that really are murderously bad. We don't debate practical eugenics. We muse about it in fiction and hypothetical scenarios, but we don't debate it in politics. We reject it because it's wrong. It's wrong because it is.
Surveillance policy should be met with this same sort of rallied opposing force. Write books about it, discuss it in an academic space, try to imagine ways in which it could do more good than bad; fine. But propose surveillance policy in the real world, and the response should be: "NO! THAT'S EVIL!"
You won't find a more powerful force than moral outrage. It doesn't need to be worked around, it needs to be channeled. On the one side, you will have people channeling their outrage towards criminals and terrorists. On the other side, you must have people channeling their outrage towards the idea of using espionage against civilians. A compromise involving "only the good kinds" of surveillance is unacceptable, because it allows the side that's rallying against criminals and terrorists to continue using moral arguments, while the side opposing them is neutered and can only make comparatively weak arguments. It's nearly impossible to successfully argue that something is morally wrong if it's already the status quo. Why is it so easy to say slavery is wrong now when it was so hotly debated in the 17th century? Same question applies to eugenics, once a topic of much political discussion. We're in that boat with surveillance right now. It feels normal to be spied on, and the uncompromising argument that surveillance is totally morally abhorrent in all its forms sounds extreme, and you'd never hear it made by a sitting politician.
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
> important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy No, I don't think we should just "realize" that. By all means, let's have a discussion; but to accept a priori that some form of surveillance is acceptable reeks of an outlook that has already given up. We should not be fearful and dependent, but rather willing to accept danger as the price…
I said ‘can be a reasonable apparatus‘ not ‘is an acceptable apparatus’ and I would argue there is a pretty big difference
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
> important that we all take a second to realize that surveillance can be a reasonable apparatus of a well maintained democracy No, I don't think we should just "realize" that. By all means, let's have a discussion; but to accept a priori that some form of surveillance is acceptable reeks of an outlook that has already given up. We should not be fearful and dependent, but rather willing to accept danger as the price…
I said ‘can be a reasonable apparatus‘ not ‘is an acceptable apparatus’ and I would argue there is a pretty big difference
I am specifically arguing that we do not (should not) accept a priori the premise that surveillance is not necessarily bad.
To do so is to capitulate the entire argument against surveillance, and reduce our fight for privacy to nothing more than weighing lesser evils.
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#18Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#19Clicking on the link for Belgium leads to a site with an unbypassble cookie acceptance popup
Re: Global Mass Surveillance – The Fourteen Eyes
#20Clicking on the link for Belgium leads to a site with an unbypassble cookie acceptance popup