Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#351

Post by Spivak » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

jabirali wrote: post #259

dgellow wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your own situation wouldn't be different if you had alternatives to Apple's store. Apple can even market their own store as the one with higher quality apps and promote their safety guarantees. Applications from another store wouldn't have to be less "safe" (depending on your definition) as other iOS applications, they would still use the same sandbox system and all the other standard APIs. You can always decide to s…

> Your own situation wouldn't be different if you had alternatives to Apple's store. I respectfully disagree with this statement. I think an analogous situation would be the launch of Disney+: it used to be possible to watch Disney series on Netflix, but after Disney decided to launch Disney+, these series were pulled from Netflix to push the adoption of Disney+. For a Netflix user, their situation would very much be…

Yeah, users have very little choice when it comes to where to get software and so "choice" in Apple's garden doesn't actually translate to user choice but developer/publisher choice since users will have to buy from wherever the software is sold.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#352

Post by Spivak » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

McDyver wrote: post #238

ericmay wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I definitely think it's in my interest and the interest of the vast majority of iPhone users to have Apple make these decisions. I'd rather every developer leave the App Store than switch away from the current model. I'd just use Apple's built-in apps.

I understand that, as a consumer, you don't want to be bothered to know all the implications of your choices, if you had to make them, so you're happy to delegate them to Apple. But who's to say that Apple has your interests in mind, and not their own, and makes a choice for you that is actually detrimental to you and beneficial to them? Let's say, by locking you in, and preventing any competition. How would you feel…

This isn't about delegating choices to Apple because without gatekeepers actually being able to enforce behavior users have no advocates and get stuck with software that toes the line of being just tolerable enough to use.

Vote with your wallets doesn't really work since people will put up with plenty of abuses for software that's useful enough to them. Vote with politics doesn't really work either because regulators are very hesitant to regulate tech and kill the cash cow.

People, like me, are so fiercely loyal to Apple because seemingly no other company has been able to strongarm developers into not being shitty to their users.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#353

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #336

latexr wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who has a better story to tell Basecamp’s story is irrelevant if they’re forced into bankruptcy before they get the chance to tell it where it makes a difference. We’re not watching a feel good movie where the righteous little guy prevails. They’d get squashed and tossed aside, and they know it .

So it’s better to have yet another avenue for shady developers to take advantage of “whales” via loot boxes and in game consumables - the very thing that the government is going after? What jury is going to care that Epic can’t sell useless virtual currency and make a larger profit?

If Epic can make phones more open first, and then later the government regulates loot and pay-to-win like gambling is already regulated, then isn't that a win for the public?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#354

Post by parasubvert » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

bananaface wrote: post #348

parasubvert wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may be misunderstanding the fundamentals of the case. This was a moonshot by Epic, mostly about the court of public opinion than the actual law.

Oh, don't be patronising. We'll see how the case pans out. I think Apple is in enough danger that aggravating the situation is a bad idea. https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/129752027579013939...

Per that analysis, there are massive differences vs the Microsoft case.

- safari is a minority marketshare browser and already existed when iOS was created; Windows already had its marketshare dominance before the browser was invented

- Portable music also pre-existed before iOS.

iPhone and Android were laughing stocks in 2008. To say these points are anticompetitive would require proving they achieved their marketshare by parlaying their existing dominance into a new market, and it’s not clear that happened, especially given the thriving of alternatives like Chrome, Spotify, Tidal, etc.

There is also a bunch of not-actually-anticompetitive points

- charging developers for use of the platform

- disallowing competitive tools

- controlling platform access altogether

All of the above would imply the game console makers like Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft have been anticompetitive for decades. It’s not likely.

The crux to me is if there is a “right to a market“ for otherwise vertically integrated components. Just beside their was a market in he past for those things, doesn’t mean they need to be enshrined in laws. It would be akin to declaring game platforms or mobile platforms as public utilities so that ISVs in other adjacent platform markets can legally force the extension of their business model on other ecosystems. It’s been done with

power generation/distribution,

alcohol brewing/distribution/sales, and

car manufacturing/sales/service.

But those had massive unintended consequences.

There is one area where there may be a clear legitimate issue: Abuse of private APIs. But it would have to be proven.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#355

Post by Betelgeuse90 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

Some of my highlights:

- "Irreparable Harm: The issue of irreparable harm focuses on the harm caused by not maintaining the status quo, as opposed to the separate and distinct element of a remedy under the likelihood of success factor. Here the court's evaluation is guided by the general notion that “self-inflicted wounds are not irreparable injury.”

- "While the Court anticipates experts will opine that Apple’s 30 percent take is anti-competitive, the Court doubts that an expert would suggest a zero percent alternative. Not even Epic Games gives away its products for free."

- "The Court further recognizes that during these coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19) times, virtual escapes may assist in connecting people and providing a space that is otherwise unavailable. However, the showing is not sufficient to conclude that these considerations outweigh the general public interest in requiring private parties to adhere to their contractual agreements or in resolving business disputes through normal, albeit expedited, proceedings."

- "With respect to the Unreal Engine and the developer tools, the calculus changes. The record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally, including on both third-party developers and gamers. The public context in which this injury arises differs significantly: not only has the underlying agreement not been breached, but the economy is in dire need of increasing avenues for creativity and innovation, not eliminating them. Epic Games and Apple are at liberty to litigate against each other, but their dispute should not create havoc to bystanders."

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#356

Post by syspec » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

Is the fact that epic has its own store on desktop, where they also take a cut, and also do not allow games to bypass their payment system relevant if this goes to trial?

It seems a bit hypocritical even if the percent is lower

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#357

Post by newacct583 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #343

newacct583 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Uber shareholders thought that they were walking away from all revenue in the state of California their shares would tank. We all know this is brinksmanship. I know it. You know it. They aren't leaving CA. The goal here is to get the "other side" to blink and adjust the rules so they can continue to operate. But at the end of the day Uber isn't abandoning the California ride share market to its competitors. Be rea…

It’s still a negotiation tactic. Would shareholders be happy if the entire business model changed? There are other freelancers that aren’t happy with the laws.

> It’s still a negotiation tactic.

Which is exactly what I said it was, and not consistent with your framing of departure as a "perfectly logical thing to do".

I'm happy we agree.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#358

Post by Spivak » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #252

wcarey wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bargaining is between users and developers. Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users, who have accepted increasingly onerous terms and privacy policies because individual users are not in a good bargaining position. Apple, in contrast, is in a bargaining position to negotiate terms of use on behalf of its users with developers. For example, if I purchase a subscription to a langua…

I think that you’re reversing the power dynamics. I agree with your first sentence but in a different way: bargaining should be between users and developers. Here Apple isn’t a benevolent user collective, they have complete control over the entire pipeline, use it to force their rules on both users and developers. Epic, Spotify and others DO WANT to negotiate with their users instead of being forced by Apple. If some…

> bargaining should be between users and developers

i.e. the power dynamic should be flipped so that developers have more leverage. This is the core issue. Users have little power on their own and are largely unorganized. So software that's useful to users enables developers to get away with many many abuses before large swaths of users abandon the product. Right now Apple has an extreme amount of leverage over developers and is rich enough to not even notice if they lose even large companies as publishers.

So yes, Apple has been protecting their business model, but the secondary effect is that user's have been benefiting hugely from this since Apple makes more money when users are happy.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#359

Post by Spivak » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #247

ericmay wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they have a good enough track record so far. If you feel the iPhone is unsafe, you're free to buy a different phone or not use one at all. Why would Apple be less incentivized than another company, like Epic, to protect your data? Apple sells the iPhone and markets it toward pro-privacy and security. Going against that is not in their own best interest. It's in Epic's interest to break through that, because the…

I would rather that the industry adopt higher standards for itself or the government play a regulatory role (or that everyone spontaneously develops a higher level of morality and social responsibility). Putting all of our trust into one corporation, no matter how big its market cap, is just asking for a single point of failure. Not to mention, Apple can always change its attitudes toward security, and then there wou…

I mean if Apple changes their ways then the only loss will be that they're finally on par with Windows and Android.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#360

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #233

treis wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've seen on Android that the practical effects of competing app stores are basically zero. There's too much advantage to controlling the OS and being the default. Epic getting a store on iOS is likely to be a moral victory at best. The effective solution is stopping dominance in one area from spilling over into another. Can't use iOS control to gain control of app sales and you can't use control of app sales to gai…

Let’s say competing app stores won’t be used. Then why is it an issue for Apple to allow them, given that they know they would still be the default and have the advantage? Apple is in this situation at where control the platform completely, and could have the default store. But somehow that’s not enough for them to consider opening the app market a little bit. Using that reasoning, they are in the best position to ac…

Google has been closing down Android with each release exactly because that gets abused.

To the point that Linux fans that keep pointing to Android as "Desktop Linux" miss the point that no Linux APIs are part of official Android APIs and depending on the Android version, apps get killed when trying to be smart reaching for private APIs.