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Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

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Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#41
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Server should never trust client input How would it make that determination?

That's not my problem. As a user I should not be inconvenienced for a problem caused by someone else. The offending party should pay the price.

That's not the server's problem. As the server, they should not be inconvenienced for a problem caused by someone else. The users (which includes the bots) should pay the price.

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#43
post #15
post #3

Step 1: Use Captcha to get free AI training data. Step 2: Sell improved AI. Step 3: Add edge cases to the Captcha that your AI can't handle yet. Go to step 1.

Can someone please explain to me why smart people keep saying that we’ll just build software to detect deepfakes? When AlphaZero plays against itself it just gets better. Once that spread is so narrow, every deviation is in the range of possible error. And it can’t explain WHY a certain move is better or why the picture is a squirrel. And sometimes it can be wrong, but only on hilarious edge cases, in the rest we jus…

Audio and video evidence isn't admissible because it's audio or video (and may be inadmissible nonetheless). It's admissible because someone testifies under oath that they have personal knowledge of its provenance. The burden is on the party introducing the evidence to show that it's reliable, and the question of whether or not it is indeed reliable is a factual one for a judge or jury to answer. It's not assumed to be "true" or to accurately reflect reality just because it's a purported photo, video, or audio recording.

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#44

while neat, it's a boon to spammers and other nefarious actors who can use these techniques to further get around captcha... concerning to say the least. if we want to defeat time-wasting and privacy-invading captcha and the murky ethics aren't a concern, then we should go to every e-commerce site that employs them, with full crap-blocking privacy mode on, load up on products/services, and then abandon our carts at t…

  >we should go to every e-commerce site that employs them, with full crap-blocking privacy mode on, load up on products/services, and then abandon our carts at the captcha.
I've been doing that for years [well, not the shopping trolley bit] on websites which throw fullscreen modal announcements in my face. The second it happens, I click off that website. I dream that the webmasters in question will have some advanced stats setup that tells them that, as soon as they digitally shat in my face I abandoned their sites. But, unfortunately I know it's an empty gesture.

https://stiobhart.net/2015-05-04-overlays-new-popups/

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#45

while neat, it's a boon to spammers and other nefarious actors who can use these techniques to further get around captcha... concerning to say the least. if we want to defeat time-wasting and privacy-invading captcha and the murky ethics aren't a concern, then we should go to every e-commerce site that employs them, with full crap-blocking privacy mode on, load up on products/services, and then abandon our carts at t…

[deleted]

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#46
post #15
post #3

Step 1: Use Captcha to get free AI training data. Step 2: Sell improved AI. Step 3: Add edge cases to the Captcha that your AI can't handle yet. Go to step 1.

Can someone please explain to me why smart people keep saying that we’ll just build software to detect deepfakes? When AlphaZero plays against itself it just gets better. Once that spread is so narrow, every deviation is in the range of possible error. And it can’t explain WHY a certain move is better or why the picture is a squirrel. And sometimes it can be wrong, but only on hilarious edge cases, in the rest we jus…

I think it’s because getting to a point where your error bound is that small with nature is incredibly difficult. GANs are a breakthrough but there are still lots of drawbacks and “tells” that allow you to identify a fake distribution. I actually don’t think we’ll get there for a really long time, and for all we know it might actually be impossible to replicate a natural distribution without gathering some untenable amount of data. Even if you gather that amount of data you often have no idea how correct your model actually is because you don’t have access to the natural distribution. You have to have a prior and picking that prior is a research area in and of itself. That’s why people say that. Your premise is really hard.

EDIT: just thought of something else, for videos and pictures increasing the resolution dramatically will make it harder to generate deep fakes, it might be interesting to see how much better cameras get and I’m sure that the amount of compute to fake a higher resolution image will be drastically higher. There are a lot of factors at play.

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#47

Woah, I never seen something like this done with bash and command line utilities. Thanks for sharing, made me find xdotool which is exactly what I neede to replace SikuliX. I can't comment on the project since I didn't test it but wow, only this example https://bitbucket.org/Pirates-of-Silicon-Hills/voightkampff/... made me think why didn't OP use a scripting language and went with Bash? (Python?) Don't get me wrong,…

It was my first time working with Bash. My focus is algorithms and I use C++.

(as a deep learning researcher) just wanted to let you know that PhDs in AI are in Python, and that all AI papers are in Python

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#48
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone please explain to me why smart people keep saying that we’ll just build software to detect deepfakes? When AlphaZero plays against itself it just gets better. Once that spread is so narrow, every deviation is in the range of possible error. And it can’t explain WHY a certain move is better or why the picture is a squirrel. And sometimes it can be wrong, but only on hilarious edge cases, in the rest we jus…

What's needed is more cryptography. Build keys into sensors to sign media and use something like blockchain to broadcast the signature at time of capture / time when the device returns to the internet. Won't be perfect, but it would be a hurdle. Also, for things like audio and video if you know the location on the planet then there are certain artifacts that are hard to fake with mere AI. The way sound bounces off wa…

The problem with that is, the video can only be watched at it's true raw form. Any edits will need to be re-signed with "Edited by X". Now, X has to be trusted and not compromised (by money, bias or hacks).

If X is CNN, then half the population will not believe it. If X is Fox, the other half won't believe. Bottomline, the world will be truly living in virtual alternative universes and it doesn't even matter what truth is as long as everyone in that world believe that.

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sci-fi author John Varley covered this in one of his novels. In a society where anything digital can be manipulated, the veracity of a speech or event depends on a network of trust and people who witnessed the event in real life . If someone made a speech in front of hundreds of live, physically present spectators, these spectators can then verify the authenticity of any recording, and as long as there people in that…

This doesn't work that well in practice: - Humans can lie - Human memory is too fallible to serve as this verification, particularly for every detail - Small details with big impact can be changed in a verified speech without some people noticing Of course if someone reliable records the actual speech, any copy can be checked against that. I'm not sure why human memory would be considered superior, as humans have poo…

How can you tell a true copy from a false copy? What makes one recording more true than the other, if you can only compare it against a reality which no longer exists (because it's in the past)?

Re: Beating Google ReCaptcha and the funCaptcha using AWS Rekognition

#50
post #19
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone please explain to me why smart people keep saying that we’ll just build software to detect deepfakes? When AlphaZero plays against itself it just gets better. Once that spread is so narrow, every deviation is in the range of possible error. And it can’t explain WHY a certain move is better or why the picture is a squirrel. And sometimes it can be wrong, but only on hilarious edge cases, in the rest we jus…

We do have methods to detect deepfakes and it often works very well (at least for any given generator, perhaps not multiple generators), but you're right, at some point deepfakes will be indistinguishable from real media. At that point I think the problem is largely outside the domain of computer science and we will need to start redefining "trust" looks like.

Anyone else find it mildly(/extremely) distressing that a large part of our industry is dedicated to creating technology that provides little-to-no value to society, but creates enormous opportunities for great societal damage?

We then release the tech to the wild without any proposed way to address the problems, instead saying “the problems this causes are outside the domain of CS, so I won’t bother considering them – besides, if I didn’t create these problems someone else would have”

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