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How to Write in Plain English

plainenglish.co.uk

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Re: How to Write in Plain English

#221

Post by bottled_poe »

greentimer wrote: post #210

"Most experts would agree that clear writing should have an average sentence length of 15 to 20 words." This quote is so preposterous it almost made me want to stop reading the article. Different types of writing should have different sentence lengths. I'm quite sure the sentence length for a math textbook and a Clorox ad should be different. There's a reason it's not common practice to measure one's average sentence…

Respectfully, I strongly disagree. If we assume that your intent is to convey meaning in an accessible way, you should be precise. Expansion on concepts should be clearly separated. There is rarely a communicative need to conflate more than two concepts in a single sentence. That said, if your intent is artistic expression, then a different mode makes sense.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#222

Post by crpatino »

C4stor wrote: post #219
greentimer wrote: post #210

"Most experts would agree that clear writing should have an average sentence length of 15 to 20 words." This quote is so preposterous it almost made me want to stop reading the article. Different types of writing should have different sentence lengths. I'm quite sure the sentence length for a math textbook and a Clorox ad should be different. There's a reason it's not common practice to measure one's average sentence…

As a non-native english writer, I found the article quite good. It reminds good practices for clear communication, which I wish everyone applied in my org. Notably around me, people excessively use passive forms. So, you weren't interested, but it doesn't mean it interests noone.

In order to communicate effectively you need a mental model of your audience. The same sentence can be cumbersome to some readers, just right for others, and even condescendingly simplistic for a small minority.

The fact that you found the article to be useful simply means that you are part of their target audience, which is great. Just keep in mind that the same advice will not work as well when you communicate with a different audience

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#223

Post by ghostpepper »

Joker_vD wrote: post #182
ThePadawan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Brazilian roommate who could second this. He (jokingly) complained this was the absolute worst when dealing with split-proposition-verbs: E. g. "aufgeben" translated part-by-part is "upgive", so "to surrender" or "to give up" in English. However, in sth. like 3rd position singular, the form would be "er gibt auf" ("he gives up"). But in German, the object goes between "gives" and "up". Thus, my roommate menti…

Well, English too has some interesting ideas where to put prepositions in the sentence, that is, turn them basically into postpositions. For example, "Which basket did you put that exquisite marble figurine in?" The "in" is logically related to "which basket", so one would expect that the question would actually be *"In which basket...", but nope, that's rustic and colloquial at best. I suspect it's because of the wo…

This is a fascinating discussion.

Could the tension/buffering in that sentence be resolved with something like: "Which basket has got that exquisite marble figurine"? When spoken by a native speaker 'has got' would likely be contracted to "which basket's got"

Sub out 'has got' for 'contains' if you want to be more formal.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#225

Post by kofejnik »

Joker_vD wrote: post #182
ThePadawan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Brazilian roommate who could second this. He (jokingly) complained this was the absolute worst when dealing with split-proposition-verbs: E. g. "aufgeben" translated part-by-part is "upgive", so "to surrender" or "to give up" in English. However, in sth. like 3rd position singular, the form would be "er gibt auf" ("he gives up"). But in German, the object goes between "gives" and "up". Thus, my roommate menti…

Well, English too has some interesting ideas where to put prepositions in the sentence, that is, turn them basically into postpositions. For example, "Which basket did you put that exquisite marble figurine in?" The "in" is logically related to "which basket", so one would expect that the question would actually be *"In which basket...", but nope, that's rustic and colloquial at best. I suspect it's because of the wo…

> that's rustic and colloquial at best.

nope, the other way around; "don't end sentences in prepositions" is a formal rule iirc. Quoting Grammarly website,

* Which journal was your article published in? (Casual)

* In which journal was your article published? (Formal)

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#226

Post by zimpenfish »

wlll wrote: post #170
aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

I'm struggling to read those as being different. UK English reader.

Native English UK Reader here and whilst the words have essentially the same meaning, I would definitely have a different take away from these two:

- John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog.

- John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy.

For me, the difference is that the second one carries more of an implication that the speaker doesn't consider dog beating all that problematic since even though John does it, he's still a nice guy. Also, to me, the first one is more judgemental towards John than the second.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#227

Post by jetrink »

At the start of my career, I had some bad tendencies in both writing and programming. I delighted in being clever. I was eager to demonstrate my knowledge and ability. I was more concerned with having fun while writing than serving the reader. It has been educational to be forced to become a reader of my own work, though I read much more of my old code than my old writing.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#228

Post by stared »

nicbou wrote: post #160
aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

> For example, readers tend to latch onto the last part of a sentence. Everything before "but" is often bullshit. "I'm not racist, but". "No offense, but".

For all intents and purposes "but" is a negation, which goes backwards.

"He is a nice guy, but..." ~= "He is not a nice guy, because..."

One interesting things is that when you look at sentiment of words in reviews, the word "but" glows (in red).

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#229

Post by C4stor »

crpatino wrote: post #222
C4stor wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-native english writer, I found the article quite good. It reminds good practices for clear communication, which I wish everyone applied in my org. Notably around me, people excessively use passive forms. So, you weren't interested, but it doesn't mean it interests noone.

In order to communicate effectively you need a mental model of your audience. The same sentence can be cumbersome to some readers, just right for others, and even condescendingly simplistic for a small minority. The fact that you found the article to be useful simply means that you are part of their target audience, which is great. Just keep in mind that the same advice will not work as well when you communicate with…

I'll keep it in mind :-)

My context with using english in general (like here on HN) is communicating as a non-native with both native speakers and non-native speakers. For some of those, just reading english is a challenge.

Since I also know I can easily write nonsensical sentences, I thought this article was a good reminder on how to safely stay in the "I make sense" area in this context, and as so disagreed with person I replied to ^^

I would definitely have higher ambitions regarding "tone" in my mother tongue though, but for english writing, I'll be happy if I can be clear !

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#230

Post by jackschultz »

One thing not mentioned that I'd like to add is avoid using pronouns when you can. Like he, she, it, them, this, that. As soon as you have multiple nouns in when explaining something, you can get screwed. I find myself typing pronouns a lot and when I read back what I wrote, I can see how people get confused. Clarity is so important, and pronouns hurt that.
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