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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#171

Post by bananaface »

dgellow wrote: post #32

Could someone explain what was Apple trying to do? I really don't get their position in this story. It seemed obvious that trying to completely block Epic's Unreal Engine would be causing more legal issues. What is their strategy here? It feels that they actually wanted things to escalate, though I cannot see why they would do this.

I think Apple thinks they're going to lose, so they tried to apply as much pressure as possible to get Epic to settle prematurely. I can't see why else they would have done it, it just strengthens Epic's case.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#172

Post by wcarey »

toyg wrote: post #168
wcarey wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bargaining is between users and developers. Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users, who have accepted increasingly onerous terms and privacy policies because individual users are not in a good bargaining position. Apple, in contrast, is in a bargaining position to negotiate terms of use on behalf of its users with developers. For example, if I purchase a subscription to a langua…

> Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users And who do we have to thank for that turn? Apple's culture that "we know better" is a good part of that problem. Developers want to be Apple , and Apple is pretty abusive towards their users. They take the occasional pro-user stance where it suits them, but overall it's pretty clear that the only institutional interest for Apple is Apple's ow…

I'd say that I'm less defending absolute monarchy, and more defending the rule of law against the Hobbesean state of nature, with all its caprice and cruelty.

For example, if Apple conducted plebiscites of its users and used those plebiscites in informing its collective bargaining with developers, I think that'd be fine. That would force Apple to articulate the value proposition of the positions it takes.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#173

Post by hn_check »

klmadfejno wrote: post #94
jeremy_wiebe wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that an issue Epic has brought in themselves? Their “Fortnight division” has put at risk their “Unreal Engine division”. Or put another way, they have two products at different levels of the stack and they have consciously chosen to risk one (the game) to leverage all their customer’s of their other product (Unreal Engine) onto their side in this war.

That's what the judge is ruling is not allowed. There's no basis for it. Apple can't go after an unrelated business because it's having a temper tantrum and feeling spiteful. The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here.

Epic knowingly, intentionally, and publicly defied Apple's rules. In response Apple "threatened" exactly what they threaten every single other company doing the same -- to suspend or terminate your developer accounts if you don't remediate the issue. There is absolutely a basis for it, it certainly isn't "unrelated", and trying to attribute motives like spite or having a "temper tantrum" is baseless nonsense.

The court has blocked it because there could be greater harm in the short term (although that is grossly overblown -- the UE wouldn't stop working in the short or even medium term), but don't be confused into thinking this isn't a completely rote, normal response.

>The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here.

You understand that Fortnite and UE are made by the same company, right? The canard that it has anything to do with what engine Fortnite uses is absurd noise.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#175

Post by c048 »

pjmlp wrote: post #122
bananaface wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're trying to establish a precedent that would limit all monopolistic behaviour, including theirs. Obviously their motivations are to make it easier for them to compete, but it won't make it easier for them to become a monopoly.

20% global market share isn't a monopoly.

How many stores are allowed on Apple's ecosystem?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#176

Post by LexGray »

jpambrun wrote: post #141
pjmlp wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple market size is only relevant in North America and a couple of tier 1 western countries, hardly a monopoly.

No monopoly is a monopoly until it's a worldwide monopoly?

Not current numbers but some old projections put 2020 projected android users would be around 127 million users in US. iOS projected 110 million in 2021 in US. Does 50% market share when achieved even equal a monopoly?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#177

Post by treis »

dgellow wrote: post #128
raxxorrax wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hinting at the possibility of having a platform where there is no central app store to even allow such "dynamics" to unfold. > I'm not sure what you want to say here That the Apple platform with the store model has significant disadvantages.

Ok, but do we agree that Epic getting what they want would result in a more open platform than what we currently have? Because the alternative to what Epic want (so the current situation) isn't a completely open platform but one where Apple is the only boss and can do almost whatever they want. Having more bosses in competition for parts of the market is an improvement toward a more open system.

We've seen on Android that the practical effects of competing app stores are basically zero. There's too much advantage to controlling the OS and being the default. Epic getting a store on iOS is likely to be a moral victory at best.

The effective solution is stopping dominance in one area from spilling over into another. Can't use iOS control to gain control of app sales and you can't use control of app sales to gain control of payments.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#178

Post by wcarey »

wayneftw wrote: post #162
ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare. Like others,I prefer Apple to have a tightly controlled App Store and believe that the benefits far outweigh the ability to install software from a 3rd party App Store. For example, Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stor…

I’ve been running PCs and Macs in my house for over 2 decades. I have not once had a problem with viruses. Most of my problems have been with restrictions that Apple has put on me in their Mac and iOS product lines. > Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stores. Yes it is. You, as a consumer c…

Would you support compelling developers who have a monopoly on a particular app to support all available app stores? It seems like a developer who held a monopoly in a particular app would be the in the same position Apple is in with the app store writ large?

For example, if the only way to fill out my employer's timecard is via an iOS app, should they be compelled to offer the app in all the available app stores?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#179

Post by cma »

pjmlp wrote: post #121
appleflaxen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes but you can't pre-bust monopolies. apple's market position is causing higher prices for consumers. therefore it should be busted. we just need to keep the same standard (or better: make it more strict; apple has been abusive for a long time) for when epic becomes the monopoly.

Apple market size is only relevant in North America and a couple of tier 1 western countries, hardly a monopoly.

Monopoly on customers with lots of expendable income, who account for most App Store revenue.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#180

Post by sifar »

theklr wrote: post #139
anoncake wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you allow people to load software of their choice for their automobiles? Obviously yes. > Smart TVs usually are limited by their OS and encumbered by licensing that locks down what can be loaded. This mostly is because of decoding legalities It's because of DRM. Nothing here benefits the customer. > Who becomes liable if your privacy, assets, or even the device, are compromised because you were able to load s…

Umm. You choose to live in that walled garden or not, so if I choose to have “that choice” taken away from me, that’s still choice.

>> I choose to have “that choice” taken away from me, that’s still choice

This is a great example of Orwellian doublethink.

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