Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 639 posts

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#131

Post by dgellow »

ericmay wrote: post #112
dgellow wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say Epic get what they want, that would open iOS to competing app stores and/or would make rules more flexible regarding available payment systems and/or would allow applications to be side loaded. That's more dynamism, market forces can then play their role. I understand that you may want an even more open market, but that's a quite different topic. > Having two competing kings fighting over the throne isn't "…

I think what you’d see is not much in the way of price decreases or increased availability of apps, but more dark patterns, malware, and anti-privacy measures. Apple basically collectively bargains for iPhone users via the App Store. Privacy features, sign-in with Apple, limiting tracking abuse, privacy “Nutrition Facts” and other items will go out the window. Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will…

> Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will make the trade off with privacy to play Fortnite or download a new social media app.

> Apple makes it so that trade off doesn’t have to happen.

That's the core of the discussion here: you seem to think that's in the interest of the user to have Apple taking all those decisions for themselves. I firmly disagree, I'm a happy user of an iOS device and do release iOS apps, in both case I would prefer to have more choice of trade-off, and to be able to decide for myself instead of Apple taking a decision for all their user base and developers.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#132

Post by dgellow »

slipheen wrote: post #129
dgellow wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only half of the story. Apple threatened Epic to block the Unreal Engine completely, that's what the article discussed here is about.

I don't think that's correct. They were threatening to block Epic's developer account, which would make future engine releases difficult.

From a comment by onion2k in another thread:

> This is a quote from the letter that Apple sent to Epic;

>> If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities:"

>> [...]

>> - Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of Unreal Engine on Mac and iOS hardware; optimize Unreal Engine on the Mac for creative workflows, virtual sets and their CI/Build Systems; and adoption and support of ARKit features and future VR features into Unreal Engine by their XR team

> That is a statement that Apple made saying they will stop all help they give to Epic getting UE running on all Apple hardware. With the other stuff in the letter it makes it very clear that the problem is not just one for Epic Games, but all of Epic.

> You can read it yourself - https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.... (Apple's letter starts on page 51 of the PDF)

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24269719

So they seem to be very specific and specifically call out work on the Unreal Engine.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#133

Post by zeroimpl »

IvanK_net wrote: post #20

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

What great features do Android users get as a result of being able to sideload apps which aren’t available on the App Store?

I believe the (weak) answer to the above is the answer to your question. Features are what matters to the majority of users. The ability to sideload apps itself is not.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#134

Post by theklr »

gtsteve wrote: post #63
kergonath wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK they did not threaten to remove licenses for companies using the Unreal Engine. Just Epic’s.

Yes but Epic still needs those licenses to support those companies and continue to develop the engine. Regardless of the other matter going on, it looks punitive to me. I think when we look back on this event in 5-10 years' time, we'll see this as a serious misstep by Apple.

That’s a bold claim

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#135

Post by ericmay »

hhjinks wrote: post #117
ericmay wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you’d see is not much in the way of price decreases or increased availability of apps, but more dark patterns, malware, and anti-privacy measures. Apple basically collectively bargains for iPhone users via the App Store. Privacy features, sign-in with Apple, limiting tracking abuse, privacy “Nutrition Facts” and other items will go out the window. Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will…

I sure love having a faceless trillion-dollar company making choices for me to try to keep me and my device safe.

Well, they have a good enough track record so far. If you feel the iPhone is unsafe, you're free to buy a different phone or not use one at all.

Why would Apple be less incentivized than another company, like Epic, to protect your data? Apple sells the iPhone and markets it toward pro-privacy and security. Going against that is not in their own best interest. It's in Epic's interest to break through that, because then they can use dark patterns and break privacy restrictions (as other companies will and intend to do).

Again, it's no surprise that as Apple has been more user-focused and privacy-focused in their continued iPhone and iOS development that developers are feeling the squeeze when they want to use dark patterns, so naturally they'll try and break out of that so they can go back to their old bad habits again.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#136

Post by ericmay »

dgellow wrote: post #131
ericmay wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you’d see is not much in the way of price decreases or increased availability of apps, but more dark patterns, malware, and anti-privacy measures. Apple basically collectively bargains for iPhone users via the App Store. Privacy features, sign-in with Apple, limiting tracking abuse, privacy “Nutrition Facts” and other items will go out the window. Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will…

> Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will make the trade off with privacy to play Fortnite or download a new social media app. > Apple makes it so that trade off doesn’t have to happen. That's the core of the discussion here: you seem to think that's in the interest of the user to have Apple taking all those decisions for themselves. I firmly disagree, I'm a happy user of an iOS device and do release…

Yea, I definitely think it's in my interest and the interest of the vast majority of iPhone users to have Apple make these decisions. I'd rather every developer leave the App Store than switch away from the current model. I'd just use Apple's built-in apps.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#137

Post by wcarey »

dgellow wrote: post #131
ericmay wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you’d see is not much in the way of price decreases or increased availability of apps, but more dark patterns, malware, and anti-privacy measures. Apple basically collectively bargains for iPhone users via the App Store. Privacy features, sign-in with Apple, limiting tracking abuse, privacy “Nutrition Facts” and other items will go out the window. Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will…

> Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will make the trade off with privacy to play Fortnite or download a new social media app. > Apple makes it so that trade off doesn’t have to happen. That's the core of the discussion here: you seem to think that's in the interest of the user to have Apple taking all those decisions for themselves. I firmly disagree, I'm a happy user of an iOS device and do release…

I wonder whether people's opinions about Apple's behavior here are isomorphic to their opinions about collective bargaining writ large?

If you're the sort of person who releases iOS apps, you're far more technically inclined than the median user and perhaps more willing to engage in individual negotiation of terms of service and privacy (as you'll be plausibly good at it). The median user of an iPhone is in a hopeless bargaining position in the face of dark patterns, and for that user, perhaps the collective bargaining Apple engages in is more valuable.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#138

Post by wcarey »

badsectoracula wrote: post #64
ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare. Like others,I prefer Apple to have a tightly controlled App Store and believe that the benefits far outweigh the ability to install software from a 3rd party App Store. For example, Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stor…

I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just do not use those other stores and apps. Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. You can keep your tightly controlled experience by not using anything else than Apple - but that doesn't mean e…

> Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store.

Many employers do that very thing. How many people have been compelled by employment circumstances to install Zoom despite its dubious pedigree? What happens when a corporate timecard app exists only in a 3rd party app store?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#139

Post by theklr »

anoncake wrote: post #73
Shivetya wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it does not matter to the vast majority of people. In fact many appreciate that there is a gate keeper. There are so many categories where you cannot load software outside of what the manufacturer provides that you cannot list them. It would also be impractical to allow otherwise for many of these. Then you end up with warranty issues. Would you allow people to load software of their choice for their automobi…

> Would you allow people to load software of their choice for their automobiles? Obviously yes. > Smart TVs usually are limited by their OS and encumbered by licensing that locks down what can be loaded. This mostly is because of decoding legalities It's because of DRM. Nothing here benefits the customer. > Who becomes liable if your privacy, assets, or even the device, are compromised because you were able to load s…

Umm. You choose to live in that walled garden or not, so if I choose to have “that choice” taken away from me, that’s still choice.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#140

Post by hellisothers »

I find a lot of the comments here split down “I want app regulation because I feel it provides a layer of safety and safety is good for the consumer” vs “I want more freedom and choice because choice is good and is better for the consumer”. Which brings to mind two things

This sounds similar to the current brouhaha happening in the US over America’s inclination towards personal freedom at all cost even when govt regulation could/should step in the make things better.

A concern that once “freedom of choice of App Store” is provided, where does it stop because ultimately those demanding choice will keep demanding aspects be “open up” “for fairness” until iOS isn’t special anymore. Part of what makes it special _is_ it’s regulation, if you don’t want that then “choose” elsewhere. This aspect feels like the problem in the US of big business battling for deregulation which... isn’t always so great.

I’m not saying “Apple is doing it for the people!”, necessarily but Apple is doing it to be Apple, let’s not make everything the same.

Post reply on HN