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What Is the Small Web?

ar.al

81–90 of 122 posts

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#81
post #47

This is the same guy who ran that complete shambles of a vapourware project a few years back to build a smartphone right? This sounds exactly the same in that it's some vanity project under the guise of being indie or privacy focused but all he's really looking for is some more cash. I'd probably continue to steer well clear.

C'mon, Aral Balkan is well known expert and activist, he's not just "some guy". He's been in and around web-standards development for decades, involved in W3C standards' groups, and very vocal pushing for better accessibility, privacy, worker and human rights in IT, etc. You can accuse him of being a lot of things (overzealous for one), but I don't think he's ever been "just for some more cash" type of person.

> very vocal

That's a good enough summary.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#82
post #78

Hey all, Just skimmed the comments (I know, I know, never read the comments) but here are couple of facts in case you care about that sort of thing (but please don’t let these get in the way of a lively discussion) ;) - re: drug dealers/users, see: analogy - Yes, six years ago, we thought we could fix the problem with a phone. Then we started working on the problem and realised we couldn’t possibly raise enough money…

Aral: you go rounds and rounds to reinvent ideas that are solved, and it's been like this for years.

You could join any ActivityPub based project; even start one; build a Matrix client with a web frontent; dig into Scuttlebutt; start working with Beaker on dat://. Any of these choices are better, than starting yet another approach from scratch and wasting a lot of time and effort on it.

Now, for the other issue: please don't try to coin new term that is confusing to everyone. For example, there was a brilliant essay recently - https://neustadt.fr/essays/the-small-web/ - which used the same "small web" phrase in a very different context. This is just the tip of the iceberg with the problem of using something this generic.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#83
post #82
post #78

Hey all, Just skimmed the comments (I know, I know, never read the comments) but here are couple of facts in case you care about that sort of thing (but please don’t let these get in the way of a lively discussion) ;) - re: drug dealers/users, see: analogy - Yes, six years ago, we thought we could fix the problem with a phone. Then we started working on the problem and realised we couldn’t possibly raise enough money…

Aral: you go rounds and rounds to reinvent ideas that are solved, and it's been like this for years. You could join any ActivityPub based project; even start one; build a Matrix client with a web frontent; dig into Scuttlebutt; start working with Beaker on dat://. Any of these choices are better, than starting yet another approach from scratch and wasting a lot of time and effort on it. Now, for the other issue: plea…

"solved" is overstating it, but are already being worked on by groups that have made good progress and a working base, and will continue to make progress.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#84
post #75
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it really doesn't. Are library users called users because the library preys of their patrons addiction to literature? This is a very weak wordgame, that at best muddies the point about tech companies.

There are multiple instances of tech companies exhibiting this 'drug user' behaviour on their customers, I am sure you don't have any examples for your false comparison.

You are not understanding the issue here. Nobody is saying that tech companies ain't doing bad things. Let's stop this argument, as we're are not having the same argument.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#85
post #84
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple instances of tech companies exhibiting this 'drug user' behaviour on their customers, I am sure you don't have any examples for your false comparison.

You are not understanding the issue here. Nobody is saying that tech companies ain't doing bad things. Let's stop this argument, as we're are not having the same argument.

OK, So you have no examples then. Good.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#86
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never met or heard of a drug dealer calling their customers for users. Even if that was the case, is "(drug) user" a nice term compared to what else is used - like addicts, fiends, junkie, tweaker, etc. It kind of recognize the agency of addicts, instead of the dehumanisation following the other terms.

>I have never met or heard of a drug dealer calling their customers for users. I've never met one calling them customers or clients either, I don't know that they had any term for them.

>I've never met one calling them customers or clients

I didn't wrote that they did. Please read my comment again.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#87
post #80
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes no sense to turn this into a purity contest. "a company once provided a room for an event", "they provide service credits for all open-source projects that apply" or something like that does not invalidate a movement. In the same way that I don't support going through the sponsor lists of the events Aral talks at to call him a hypocrite - as long as it is peripheral it's sometimes hard to avoid and sometimes…

If this was a mistake and they have changed their mind, sure. If not, (even when warned) it shows they don't have any principles, You won't catch Richard Stallman or anyone rightfully for privacy rights at such an event would you? I would definitely be suspect and would actively call out privacy conferences being hosted and invited by surveillance capitalists.

Quick, let's drop every open source project that had any kind of contribution from Google because every thing done by a trillion-dollar company does is evil and mere relationship with them implies you are compromised.

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#88
I agree with the sentiment of the writer. Unfortunately I don't see much of a solution offered in the statement.

The biggest obstacle is not only eas of use. Companies as FB, Twitter, LinkedIn, Google etc solve also other problems, they also select and filter information for you. They don't do it flawlessly, but still do quit a good job. One so far nobody else offers, because they are first movers in the space and now own the biggest networks.

Unfortunately their big centralized systems also creates the danger that comes with any big centralized source of information. There are always people that want it to put to good use for noble goals. And as it the human condition all power corrupts.

So in my opinion it is never good to concentrate too much power in the hands of too few people. It does not really matter if it is big government or big business. It will always start working for conformity and limit free speech.

We already see this totalitarian nature in the censorship around Covid information. It started as a way to surpress legitimate misinformation. But it is now actually preventing and surpressing new research that challanges current medical dogmas. Big tech, is like big government. It just does not work that well, is risk averse and is favouring stability over inovation.

The question then is, how can we revitalize the old decentralized web ideal, with all it's free information published for all individuals? The old web only solved standardization of content with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. It did not solve relationships and privacy between people.

Now has the time come to work on standards that connect people. To build networks of friends and to build trust networks like all social media now already does.

Technology is also still improving. While all people can't type more stories, they only have each aimited amount of time for doing that, computers keep getting faster and faster, storage is keep getting cheaper and cheaper. So computer power is becoming a commodity with less and less value. Every day, it gets easier and cheaper to host data and search it.

Web space is cheap, so take Twitter, is it really that hard to publish a Twitter feed in a JSON file, use encryption to allow friends access to your feed data and publish that all on your own rented space that you fully control? Is it that hard to rank your own friends tweets in your own feed that runs on your rented computer power?

Advertisment as financing the computer rent is an option as well. Third parties can build services on top of the standardized data sets. Except that they can not lock you in, as it is your data. They just unlock it by providing search and filtering services while also include ads to make some bucks.

This open technology could also benefit existing alternative social networks, because it creates the needed network effect they need. Because by letting smaller parties work together without even knowing or agreeing with each other. Nobody controlls the network as everybody owns his own dataset. But can still connect to all other people who use the same data standard.

What is keeping us from building something like this? What am I missing?

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#89
post #24

This is the same guy who ran that complete shambles of a vapourware project a few years back to build a smartphone right? This sounds exactly the same in that it's some vanity project under the guise of being indie or privacy focused but all he's really looking for is some more cash. I'd probably continue to steer well clear.

I don’t know much about this guy, but I have seen tons of projects embark on this vision. Matrix.org Mastodon Scuttlebutt Solid We began back in 2011 and have our own version, that lets anyone host their own social network as easily as Wordpress powers blogs. That’s the goal, anyway. Here are the economics: https://qbix.com/token Feedback is welcome!

Also

  Urbit

Re: What Is the Small Web?

#90
post #78

Hey all, Just skimmed the comments (I know, I know, never read the comments) but here are couple of facts in case you care about that sort of thing (but please don’t let these get in the way of a lively discussion) ;) - re: drug dealers/users, see: analogy - Yes, six years ago, we thought we could fix the problem with a phone. Then we started working on the problem and realised we couldn’t possibly raise enough money…

One of the cute things is, that I like Aral. I do, ever since he got mad at PayPal. I like him because he has been steadfast at this while many of the others that started to bang on this problem when it just appeared (2006/7/8) either joined the armies of Mordor .. (Chris Messina?) Or got tired... Distracted.. or are still fighting the fight from the sidelines (Evan Prodromou, Blaine Cook, such lovely people!). So many have just disappeared.

Yeah, his self-aggrandizing can be tiresome. He does sound like a one person cult from time to time. But he has been tireless in saying the one important thing "This fight can be won. Don't let up. It is worth fighting". And that in itself is worth our respect.

Now, I have long come to the conclusion that there are no technical solutions to this. Only political ones. In the sense that at the micro level we need to create the movement of people that care. At the macro level we need to elect the people that pass the laws that break the megacorps or make them into public utilities. It doesn't mean we stop working on the software infrastructure to combat the Evil empire(s). But software alone won't cut it.

Now Aral is not useless on those tlfights either. He keeps talking about them, and talks well.

So, will Site.js make any dent in anything? Quite obviously not. Personally, technically, most of it makes me cringe quite violently.

Could it have had a better chance if Aral was "nicer", humbler, at a bit better at coalition building? Probably.

At any rate, Aral, not being "nice" is no reason to be nasty yourself.

Best of luck Aral, keep up the fight, and thank you for your service.

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