Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

cdn.vox-cdn.com

51–60 of 71 posts

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#51

I'm extremely surprised that Apple would engage in something that could in court be perceived as retaliatory against someone who is filing a complaint regarding anti competitive behavior. The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market. By denying Epic access in the game engine market, Apple is trying to get Epic to fold in the game distribution market…

> The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market

What is the "other market" in this scenario?

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#52
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should a court intervene in the contracting of two private parties? Epic started this fight by intentionally breaching an existing contract with Apple, only so they can get better terms. Microsoft does the same as Apple, it makes money off micro-transactions and the ability for its competitors to sell on Xbox/Microsoft store, use trade dress, and be included in those hideous green media cases. Last I checked Epic…

The entire purpose of civil courts is to mediate disputes between private parties. Courts are also the mechanism that give private contracts any authority. Civil suits are also one of the mechanisms by which government regulation is enforced. The alternative to that would be the government inserting itself into private relations even when there is no dispute between the parties; which is even more heavy handed (albei…

I understand, but disagree. They didn’t need to violate the contract for creation of a lawsuit. Hell, they could have terminated their agreement and try to contract with apple without accepting the default agreement.

They had standing the whole time, albeit with a limitation to arbitration at first instance for certain claims, which may have been bypassed on certain grounds anyway.

The temporary restraining order (injunction) application claims they want to be able to post Fortnite on the App Store without scrutiny from Apple and lastly that they regain access to a working developer account for unreal engine.

I recommend watching the virtual legality series on this topic which might interest you on the ins and outs of the legal dispute. The latest episode covering Microsoft is here: https://youtu.be/-jXJjllz00I

Edit: spelling.

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire purpose of civil courts is to mediate disputes between private parties. Courts are also the mechanism that give private contracts any authority. Civil suits are also one of the mechanisms by which government regulation is enforced. The alternative to that would be the government inserting itself into private relations even when there is no dispute between the parties; which is even more heavy handed (albei…

The weird quirks are acerbated by Arbitration clauses designed to keep disagreements from ever going to court and instead being handled by "closed door, opaque third party negotiators". Until Apple closed the contract indicating a breach, Epic would have been forced to go to Arbitration to settle the matter, rather than get their day in court.

Good point, and I assume that mediators probably can’t consider anti-trust matters while courts can.

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#54
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Xbox isn’t marketed as a general purpose computer, nor is it integral to the economy.

Apple's misbehavior includes locking out competitors to their own apps. This is as if Microsoft started removing Halo competitors from the Xbox (which they don't do). Just because of that the case is much, much stronger against Apple than it might be against Microsoft.

If a game deliberately bypassed paying Microsoft their cut of the in-game transactions, you think that Microsoft would be fine leaving the game in the store doing this?

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone making this "general purpose computer" argument is disingenuously taking care to define the term specifically to rule out game consoles while covering the iPhone. The fact is that modern gaming consoles are general purpose computers complete with media center capabilities, operating systems, application stores, multitasking, networking, web browsing, streaming, etc. Just like the case of the iPhone, the only…

Why do people even feel the need to defend consoles? The fact consoles are also artificially restricted doesn't mean it's okay for the Iphone to be, it means they need to be fixed as well.

My take on it is that while both are bad, the iOS situation is far worse.

Almost no one would replace a desktop or laptop with an xbox while many people have done just that with an iPhone.

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#56

I'm extremely surprised that Apple would engage in something that could in court be perceived as retaliatory against someone who is filing a complaint regarding anti competitive behavior. The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market. By denying Epic access in the game engine market, Apple is trying to get Epic to fold in the game distribution market…

> The definition of anti trust is to use your position in one market to gain an unfair advantage in an other market.

Your definition is missing a key point, which is you have to possess sufficient market power in the primary market in order to use to gain an advantage. If you lack market power, it doesn't matter what you do because you lack the ability to coerce consumers. As the Supreme Court put it:

If one of a dozen food stores in a community were to refuse to sell flour unless the buyer also took sugar it would hardly tend to restrain competition in sugar if its competitors were ready and able to sell flour by itself. (Northern Pac. R. Co. v. United States)

> It is shocking to me that Apples lawyers, would allow Apple to so blatantly threaten Epic in this way. They are providing a clear example of anti competitive behavior, for Epic to use in future litigation.

Epic violated the terms of Apple's developer agreement by deliberately hiding their payment processing code to get it past app review. Hiding functionality is considered an egregious violation of the developer program and grounds for termination of your entire account. Apple has the right to terminate their contract for that violation alone, regardless of whether you think the terms relating to in-app purchases are lawful or not.

Framing this as retaliatory or a threat is hyperbole. One party violated the terms of a contract, so the other party is exercising their right to terminate.

> You would think Apple has good enough lawyers to put a stop to this self defeating behavior.

Do you really think you have a better grasp of antitrust law than their legal team?

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#57
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I knew you could buy games for the Xbox from people other than Microsoft. Best Buy, for instance

Except you can't get your game on the shelf without Microsoft's explicit (contractual) approval, and (of course) paying them a royalty for each copy sold.

You can’t even make an app store viewers which just links to the iOS app store but with better search/discovery since that is against app store rules.

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#58
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I knew you could buy games for the Xbox from people other than Microsoft. Best Buy, for instance

Except you can't get your game on the shelf without Microsoft's explicit (contractual) approval, and (of course) paying them a royalty for each copy sold.

What cut does Microsoft take on IAPs? I think this is the main issue at stake here— the fact that apple takes 30% from IAPs too, and that you can only use Apple's systems to receive IAP payments.

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you can't get your game on the shelf without Microsoft's explicit (contractual) approval, and (of course) paying them a royalty for each copy sold.

Isn't that a different argument?

Is it? You have to pay a Microsoft tax to sell anything that functions on the Microsoft device. Is it different because the fee is structured somewhat differently?

Re: Microsoft Statement in Support of Epic [pdf]

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you can't get your game on the shelf without Microsoft's explicit (contractual) approval, and (of course) paying them a royalty for each copy sold.

What cut does Microsoft take on IAPs? I think this is the main issue at stake here— the fact that apple takes 30% from IAPs too, and that you can only use Apple's systems to receive IAP payments.

They take 30% as well.
Post reply on HN