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Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

scientificamerican.com

231–236 of 236 posts

Re: Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andromeda has 3-4 more stars than the milky way; we already lost, should we flee instead?

The odds favor Andromeda, yes. But depending on just how rare intelligent life is, there is some possibility that we have a lucky head start. As for fleeing: The whole concept of "fleeing" assumes a civilization composed of discrete beings that are expensive to reproduce but can be feasibly transported. The idea of Von Neumann probes is based on a different assumption. The probe itself is very small, maybe only a few…

I wonder whether once a civilisation reached that point, the game theoretical equations around aggressivity and self preservation change significantly to invalidate the dark forest theory.

Re: Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Realistically, though, it's too much of a coincidence that such a probe would first arrive so soon after we gained the ability to conceive of it. It is based on TIME but our conception of it would be independent. I think a lot of what's part of the drake equation is merited on overlap. It's entirely possible that other civilizations have been created and died out LONG before mammals even evolved. IF you factor in j…

I don't really understand what this "evolving into godhood" means, but I would really like to talk with the bacteria if I could, even if I might still take antibiotics after talking to it.

> I don't really understand what this "evolving into godhood" means

Not dying of old age or saving your memories/consciousness into a computer and transferring into another body.

Re: Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. I could conceive of an alien "prime directive" like in Star Trek. So saying that it's out of the question is definitely not something that I believe. Humans, after all, are constantly observing other species. Why wouldn't aliens?

Can you expand? I don't see the logical connection between "I can conceive it" and therefore it's possible. I mean, it's possible aliens are so similar to us we could communicate and share values. I just don't see why we would expect it, given that they will have evolved in a completely different environment with completely different evolutionary pressures. We would be far more likely to figure out what whale songs m…

There may be some universal aspects to sentience. Especially one that, presumably, comes knocking at our door. Any energy and/or resource consumption probably leads to expansionary tendencies to acquire more resources and energy. And if they come here, that implies they have some technology or ability for motion, which I’m fairly certain necessitates energy usage. So, on some real base level, they’d probably want ‘stuff.’ And when you think about it, wanting stuff drives a lot of our evolved biology and social structures. I’d venture to guess that if aliens ever do show up, there would be at least some mutually recognizable aspects.

Now my favored theory is that there are no other sentient species within a detectable range from us, and same goes for any of them out there too. Time to start accepting that we’re (functionally) all alone out here.

Re: Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand? I don't see the logical connection between "I can conceive it" and therefore it's possible. I mean, it's possible aliens are so similar to us we could communicate and share values. I just don't see why we would expect it, given that they will have evolved in a completely different environment with completely different evolutionary pressures. We would be far more likely to figure out what whale songs m…

There may be some universal aspects to sentience. Especially one that, presumably, comes knocking at our door. Any energy and/or resource consumption probably leads to expansionary tendencies to acquire more resources and energy. And if they come here, that implies they have some technology or ability for motion, which I’m fairly certain necessitates energy usage. So, on some real base level, they’d probably want ‘st…

"There may be some universal aspects to sentience."

I'll define sentience for us quite loosely and vaguely to mean "has self awareness" and "knows stuff that would be useful to us", like new fields in mathematics and physics. LMK if that's incorrect.

There may be universal aspects to that, and we're only speculating, so you could be right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I have a feeling that "sentience" as a general concept, whatever the definition, contains these "universal aspects" right in the definition, begging the question.

We only have a single data point for even recognizing what sentience is: as you say, some indicators are "motion", "wanting stuff", "energy usage"

Since there are example on Earth of creatures that have all of those traits that are definitely not sentient, can I assume you mean at greater scale? So, motion across interstellar distances and what that implies.

To my mind, motion across interstellar distances is neither necessary nor sufficient to demonstrate "sentience" as defined above. I can easily imagine a mindless entity evolved to spew spores into space with only enough sentience to take advantage of gravity sling shots to speed themselves along the way, that we mistake for spaceships. Or highly advanced, sentient creatures that are immobile, that look to us like barnacles or slime mold, that take thousands of years to complete a single thought.

At the end of the day, I believe we are going to recognize only creatures that evolved under very similar circumstances to us as "sentient": can manipulate objects; can emit signals we recognize as such, at a scale we can comprehend; bonus points for spaceships, clothing, machinery; bonus points for using scientific principles that we do not yet know, but would find useful.

I suspect (admittedly without due cause) that this kind of sentience is exceedingly rare relative to the potential diversity of what is possible; which is to say, that post-first-contact humanity will find our definition of sentience to be astonishingly narrow

Re: Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

#235
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which forces the logical conclusion that this isn't the first such probe, obviously.

That could only be true if they are intentionally hiding from us, rather than replicating and harvesting the solar system as fast as they can. But personally I have a hard time believing that hyper-intelligent devices would care about avoiding detection by lowly biological organisms like us.

Agreed. I don't sneak up on the ant colony that's become too close to my house before I dispatch it.

Re: Mystery of interstellar visitor 'Oumuamua gets trickier

#236
post #47

My pet theory (which is not intended to be taken too seriously) is that it is indeed a discarded light sail, and that light sail in particular was used to transport a Von Neumann probe which detached at some point after the object entered our solar system but before we first observed it. This detachment, in addition to leaving the sail tumbling, would have changed its trajectory, meaning our estimation of which direc…

> Realistically, though, it's too much of a coincidence that such a probe would first arrive so soon after we gained the ability to conceive of it.

Alternately, this implies that we're visited all the time, but usually by robotic probes flying through the solar system for brief visits before being disposed of responsibly and cleanly.

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