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Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

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Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#371

Post by nodamage »

romanoderoma wrote: post #369
nodamage wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft had 90% market share in the operating system market and that is why they lost their case. Apple has less than 50% market share in the United States and it's unlikely the courts would view them as having monopoly power. The case is even weaker in Europe where Apple only has 25% market share. It does not make sense to point to Microsoft and declare "these situations are the same" when there is a key differenc…

> Microsoft had 90% market share in the operating system market only in the consumer market... it is not the same argument people use right now for Apple? "Buy Android" they say People could buy Sun, SGI, IBM with OS/2, Macintosh computers etc. etc. in 1993 even Amiga was a viable option The point is that the alternative is not really an alternative if switching is expensive or straight impossible (it's very hard to…

Market power is a specific term used in economics relating to how much control a company has over the price of a good or service. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power)

It does not have anything to do with stock market rankings.

Microsoft had a very large amount of market power in the operating system market, high enough that it was considered monopoly power, and that is why they lost their case.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#372

Post by mthoms »

scarface74 wrote: post #105
pornel wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people don't think "digital" things are real, which lets Apple get away with putting 30% tax on an increasingly large part of the economy. You can sell a paper book, but an e-book gets 30% Apple tax. You can sell a CD, but an MP3 gets Apple tax. You can sell Carcasone game on cardboard pieces, but an app version must give Apple a cut.

And ebooks are free without a markup through which store exactly?

The author's website?

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#373

Post by pseudalopex »

Marsymars wrote: post #237
scarface74 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I’m an iPhone user and even I admit that Google Maps, Google Photos and whatever Google is calling their voice assistant today are better. If I were serious about photos I would use Lightroom.

Well I've got some specific points for each of them: Maps: Google Maps is drastically better from a POI standpoint, particularly for reviews, as it's become the de facto standard for restaurant reviews in my locale, while Apple Maps just imports the graveyard of Yelp reviews, and GMaps is mildly better for routing. That being said, Google Maps has ads, which is enough for me that I'd preferentially pay for Apple Maps…

Siri doesn't work locally.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#374

Post by parasubvert »

romanoderoma wrote: post #367
parasubvert wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple absolutely can decide who is in or out: it’s their platform. Governments with even regulated markets generally don’t force stores to carry certain products. Amazon absolutely has a say of what they carry in their store, and most consumers hate the terrible curation of their marketplaces lately. If what Apple runs is not a product, it’s a utility. I think people underestimate what it means to declare the App Sto…

> Apple absolutely can decide who is in or out: it’s their platform. The HW device is not theirs. > Amazon absolutely has a say of what they carry in their store They have no say of what's inside the box. If inside the box there is a sticker that says "buy from our store, it's cheaper" they can't be forced out Maybe Amazon can find other ways of kicking products out, but not that one Apple wrote that rule inside thei…

> The HW device is not theirs.

The software is theirs. It’s already been legally established that they’re allowed to create HW that only runs their software.

> [Amazon] have no say of what's inside the box.

That is untrue. If amazon doesn’t like a supplier, or what’s in a suppliers box, they can and will cut that supplier off from being able to sell on their store. They have done this before at their own whim.

> Apple wrote that rule inside their agreements... Which is clearly unfair competition

No. It’s simple contract law. Their software, their rules.

There is no competition here to be anticompetitive, there is only a singular retail channel to a singular platform. Anyone is free to walk across the street to Google, or any one of the Non-Play-Store Androids. Taking a cut of retail sales isn’t rent seeking, its normal business practice.

As soon as a government decides it doesn’t like private contracts and wants to create a disintermediated market - which is the most logical way to get close to what you’re asking for, a free market of stores and suppliers where it’s more likely that ISVs will be less restricted , that’s interfering with the market arrangement and the iOS platform’s approach to security and quality control.

It is almost unimaginable that the government would force Apple to lift all admission restrictions on the platform due to security and quality concerns , but even if they did, they couldn’t force Apple or any other retailer to resell software they don’t want to, short of heavy regulatory injection. So let’s say they they found a way to make this work. It’s either via a market of many app stores, or its by making Apple an agent of the government Itself in curating the App Store.

My overall point is “Be careful what you wish for“. The unintended consequences of this interference are vast. The likely outcome is entrenching Apple and Google as an extension of government, rather than just removing restrictions for ISVs. Apple gets regulated, but now keeps making trillions of dollars/euros by law.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#375

Post by romanoderoma »

nodamage wrote: post #371
romanoderoma wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft had 90% market share in the operating system market only in the consumer market... it is not the same argument people use right now for Apple? "Buy Android" they say People could buy Sun, SGI, IBM with OS/2, Macintosh computers etc. etc. in 1993 even Amiga was a viable option The point is that the alternative is not really an alternative if switching is expensive or straight impossible (it's very hard to…

Market power is a specific term used in economics relating to how much control a company has over the price of a good or service. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power ) It does not have anything to do with stock market rankings. Microsoft had a very large amount of market power in the operating system market, high enough that it was considered monopoly power, and that is why they lost their case.

Thanks for the mainsplaining

What you fail to understand is that money is power

Especially when money can be used to

- buy competitors

- put them out of business

- sue them on the most insignificant detail

- sue other small companies just because they use a different fruit in their logo. Why? Because you have money and you can! (see prepear logo fight for reference)

- stall job market to keep workers from going to competitors (see Apple and Google's wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees)

- abuse your market position, fines in the range of billions are peanuts for you (see French antitrust authority fined Apple for 1.2 billions)

etc etc

- did we forget that they have a monopoly in a luxury brand used mainly by managers and very powerful people that involves handling their private data and can exactly "control the price of good and services" on that platform at their will?

Companies that make yachts have no monopoly on means of transport, but they make boats for people like Paul Allen and have much more power than Fiat/Chrysler

Last but not least

You are wrong again

Microsoft lost their case because they ABUSED of their dominant position, that's exactly what Apple is doing in the iOS market

And it's much worse because MS was an outsider at the times, Apple is the richest company in the World

US is not dominating the World because they are better - the contrary is probably true - or have a larger market influence, but because they have more money than anybody else and spend more than anybody else on military budget (also used to spy on allies on civil matters, see USA spying Angela Merkel)

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#376

Post by nodamage »

romanoderoma wrote: post #375
nodamage wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market power is a specific term used in economics relating to how much control a company has over the price of a good or service. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power ) It does not have anything to do with stock market rankings. Microsoft had a very large amount of market power in the operating system market, high enough that it was considered monopoly power, and that is why they lost their case.

Thanks for the mainsplaining What you fail to understand is that money is power Especially when money can be used to - buy competitors - put them out of business - sue them on the most insignificant detail - sue other small companies just because they use a different fruit in their logo. Why? Because you have money and you can! (see prepear logo fight for reference) - stall job market to keep workers from going to co…

> Microsoft lost their case because they ABUSED of their dominant position, that's exactly what Apple is doing in the iOS market

Microsoft used their monopoly power in the operating system market to forcibly acquire market share in the web browser market. The case against Microsoft was based on their monopoly power.

Apple has no monopoly power so you cannot claim the situations are the same, sorry.

I've made my point. You seem more interested in off-topic ranting rather than engaging in good faith so I'm going to move on.

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#377

Post by romanoderoma »

parasubvert wrote: post #374
romanoderoma wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple absolutely can decide who is in or out: it’s their platform. The HW device is not theirs. > Amazon absolutely has a say of what they carry in their store They have no say of what's inside the box. If inside the box there is a sticker that says "buy from our store, it's cheaper" they can't be forced out Maybe Amazon can find other ways of kicking products out, but not that one Apple wrote that rule inside thei…

> The HW device is not theirs. The software is theirs. It’s already been legally established that they’re allowed to create HW that only runs their software. > [Amazon] have no say of what's inside the box. That is untrue. If amazon doesn’t like a supplier, or what’s in a suppliers box, they can and will cut that supplier off from being able to sell on their store. They have done this before at their own whim. > Appl…

> The software is theirs.

You are wrong

The case against Apple is based on three principle

- first sale doctrine: when I buy something I have the rights of redestributing it. Apple disallow it

- Any dependency on the future versions and upgrades for a proprietary software package can create vendor lock-in, entrenching a monopoly position.

- they have the rights to make software that only run on their hardware, the opposite is not implied, hardware is not theirs, they have no legal framework to make hardware that only runs their software. To be more explicit: iOS can be Apple only, but there's no right to make Apple HW iOS only. The hardware is not theirs.

> Their software, their rules.

False, again

Rules are not above laws.

If I make you sign a contract that in exchange for goods and services asks you for a testicle, I can't enforce it, even if you triple signed it with your blood.

> “Be careful what you wish for“. The unintended consequences of this interference are vast

I'm usually very careful

I'm sure they would be for Apple or for US economy

But I am Italian and don't rely on Apple existence, I don't care if they both burn into flames

(spoiler: they won't, they will be just fine, psychological terrorism don't work on me)

In my country many companies already make billions by law, that means they are forced to supply the service at a reasonable price and can't refuse it for any reason which is not approved by a judge

It would be a very welcome improvement regarding US companies behaviour outside US

What's more interesting for me is that if I say "in Italy we all pay for public healthcare so it's almost free for everybody" they scream "communists"

If I say "the State should own a sufficient number of public buildings to give homes to those who can't afford it" they scream "communists"

Same when I say that in Italy insurance companies can't make their own prices and prices can't be discriminatory

These are all traits of modern welfare state that is widespread in Europe, despite not being communists

But when a company abuse of its powers acting like a real communist dictator, showing those behaviours that in US they imagine as being a communist, making rules and forcing everybody to obey them, even when they are debatable, many in US applaud

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#378

Post by romanoderoma »

nodamage wrote: post #376
romanoderoma wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the mainsplaining What you fail to understand is that money is power Especially when money can be used to - buy competitors - put them out of business - sue them on the most insignificant detail - sue other small companies just because they use a different fruit in their logo. Why? Because you have money and you can! (see prepear logo fight for reference) - stall job market to keep workers from going to co…

> Microsoft lost their case because they ABUSED of their dominant position, that's exactly what Apple is doing in the iOS market Microsoft used their monopoly power in the operating system market to forcibly acquire market share in the web browser market. The case against Microsoft was based on their monopoly power. Apple has no monopoly power so you cannot claim the situations are the same, sorry. I've made my point…

> Microsoft used their monopoly power in the operating system market to forcibly acquire market share in the web browser market.

Apple used their monopoly power to forcibly aquire market share for their Safari browser

(If Apple has no power, how comes that they killed Flash and are stalling the adoption of PWAs?)

> Apple has no monopoly power so you cannot claim the situations are the same, sorry.

So I can make an alternative OS for an Apple smartphone or tablet?

> You seem more interested in off-topic ranting than engaging in good faith so I'm going to mov

I just don't buy bollocks

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#379

Post by em-bee »

em-bee wrote: post #336
Terretta wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The equivalent would be that you can only use an apple console to go shopping in the apple store, much like only using an Xbox to shop in the Xbox store ... so the analogy does work and the marketplace is fine with it, and clear. // FWIW, I wish I could play Horizon Zero Dawn on that Xbox, but it’s not in the Xbox store.

see my comment below. it's a vertical lock-in. and just because the market tolerates it, that doesn't mean it is healthy and good. for each case we need to look at how that store is managed and who gets access to it under what conditions. it is my impression though that microsoft acts like a publisher for the games on the xbox, iaw they take responsibility for the games being published, picking carefully who they wor…

here is another example of how big companies abuse their position. just because they can get away with it doesn't mean it's good:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/06/streaming-laying-bare-...

discussed here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24258216

Re: Apple apologizes to WordPress, won’t force the free app to add purchases

#380

Post by scarface74 »

romanoderoma wrote: post #356
lilbopete wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the article above, it looks like it was from 2013. Android and iOS has both been out for awhile by then and Blackberry was falling being.

AFAIK as a former blackberry user (my job required to use one to adhere to our clients' security protocols) 2013 was the peak year for Blackberry

https://www.blackberry.com/us/en/company/newsroom/press-rele...

$94 million income. RIM was definitely in decline by then. Both the iOS and Android market were very much mature 7 years after the iPhone was introduced.

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