Would webkit ever come along with this?
Absolutely not.
Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
61–70 of 89 posts
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think WASM will eventually produce the solution (hear me out before you tune out). I've been thinking about this for a while. So we have WASI[0], which doesn't yet address the UI issue, but there's half a dozen at least projects attempting to create runtimes for WASM. If most languages wind up compiling for WASM / WASI I think eventually a good effort could be done towards a WASI-UI or WASUI. Imagine if major OS pl…
Imagine if major OS platforms had a common UI framework that any language can produce a UI This has been attempted a number of times, both in the browser and without, and it always comes down to people complaining that the widget set isn't "native" in look and feel and operation, and the pendulum swings back the other way. People used to complain that browser widgets didn't confirm to the OS's UI guidelines. Then you…
That’s not an issue when all native OS’s UI become a thin veneer stop WebKit.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
You could obtain an HTTPS certificate and then only use it for offline signing. That would fulfill the same purpose.
But the platform would not know that this is a code signing certificate - unless something specific is designed.
HTTPS certificates are already treated as a kind of code signing certificate by browsers.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think WASM will eventually produce the solution (hear me out before you tune out). I've been thinking about this for a while. So we have WASI[0], which doesn't yet address the UI issue, but there's half a dozen at least projects attempting to create runtimes for WASM. If most languages wind up compiling for WASM / WASI I think eventually a good effort could be done towards a WASI-UI or WASUI. Imagine if major OS pl…
Imagine if major OS platforms had a common UI framework that any language can produce a UI This has been attempted a number of times, both in the browser and without, and it always comes down to people complaining that the widget set isn't "native" in look and feel and operation, and the pendulum swings back the other way. People used to complain that browser widgets didn't confirm to the OS's UI guidelines. Then you…
I remember when people used to tell me VB6 was slow... but I bet you a lot of VB6 apps are miles faster than Electron apps and use significantly less resources / storage despite being single threaded by comparison.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, we have decades of evidence (including state of the art tech, right now, today) that argues against your optimistic scenario. In fact, Chrome is basically a piece of spyware as is. Google has no incentive to protect your privacy. How much worse will it get if the browser can reach into your LAN?
Yeah I agree. The browser does seem to be the preeminent attack vector since it's the easiest way for actors to reach into your systems. I can imagine the next generation of ransomware where your smart devices are held hostage for small-ish ransoms. To your point about privacy, yeah I also agree. I think the real evil here is how implicit the exploitation of trust is with using Chrome and Google services. Ideally the…
> your smart devices are held hostage for small-ish ransoms.
I thought the vendors did this already.
But maybe the ransomware developers will do a better job supporting the smart devices than the actual vendors.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think WASM will eventually produce the solution (hear me out before you tune out). I've been thinking about this for a while. So we have WASI[0], which doesn't yet address the UI issue, but there's half a dozen at least projects attempting to create runtimes for WASM. If most languages wind up compiling for WASM / WASI I think eventually a good effort could be done towards a WASI-UI or WASUI. Imagine if major OS pl…
WebAssembly is basically the latest in the line of Java Applets and Macromedia Flash. Maybe it'd be useful if someone built a tiny wasm emulator for x86 linux stdio binaries and posted it on a google cdn. I haven't seen anyone do that yet. I'm pretty happy with web pages as a GUI framework. If I needed a desktop GUI, I certainly would not want my binaries to be 200megs with Electron. If we're OK trading away drop-dow…
> I certainly would not want my binaries to be 200megs with Electron.
We're discussing how to avoid this overhead.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think WASM will eventually produce the solution (hear me out before you tune out). I've been thinking about this for a while. So we have WASI[0], which doesn't yet address the UI issue, but there's half a dozen at least projects attempting to create runtimes for WASM. If most languages wind up compiling for WASM / WASI I think eventually a good effort could be done towards a WASI-UI or WASUI. Imagine if major OS pl…
Imagine if major OS platforms had a common UI framework that any language can produce a UI This has been attempted a number of times, both in the browser and without, and it always comes down to people complaining that the widget set isn't "native" in look and feel and operation, and the pendulum swings back the other way. People used to complain that browser widgets didn't confirm to the OS's UI guidelines. Then you…
Umm - a large group of most popular productivity apps are cross platform and look nothing like native - from dev tools like IDEA, VSCode over Slack, MS Office, to multimedia tools like Adobe tools, almost all 3D modeling software like maya, max, audio software like Ableton, FL. None of the apps I use on a day to day basis look native (ie. like the apps provided by Apple)
You are confusing cross platform UI with frameworks that have programmer art widgets and no cross platform polish - eg. GTK+, FLTK, and even to some extent QT widgets (and many more). When people say widgets don't look native they usually mean "the widgets suck", you can create beautiful cross platform apps - Electron has quite a few because it allows standard designer tools from web dev.
Flutter is another promising development, but the desktop port seems underwhelming - it's obvious the widgets were intended for mobile apps, they will probably need a custom widget set to cover desktop UI - but the approach is sound.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
WebAssembly is basically the latest in the line of Java Applets and Macromedia Flash. Maybe it'd be useful if someone built a tiny wasm emulator for x86 linux stdio binaries and posted it on a google cdn. I haven't seen anyone do that yet. I'm pretty happy with web pages as a GUI framework. If I needed a desktop GUI, I certainly would not want my binaries to be 200megs with Electron. If we're OK trading away drop-dow…
> I certainly would not want my binaries to be 200megs with Electron. We're discussing how to avoid this overhead.
You asked me how to avoid the overhead of Electron and I suggested you try αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε since the distributables are 10,000x smaller. If it's not possible to meet your requirements using a command line c program, or a web application that runs in the browser, then could you help me understand why you need electron?
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#69Could we please just fix native software development, so it doesn't suck, rather than adding the kitchen sink to web browsers? Web pages and JavaScript are the only universally trusted medium for sharing information and simple software. Making it possible for news websites to touch ethernet/usb/serial/gpu compromises that. Same goes for optimizations ilke JIT'ing and WebAssembly which have certainly done a great job…
Atwood's Law is here to stay.
I hate it just as much as you do.
Re: Chromium devs want the browser to talk to devices, computers directly
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine if major OS platforms had a common UI framework that any language can produce a UI This has been attempted a number of times, both in the browser and without, and it always comes down to people complaining that the widget set isn't "native" in look and feel and operation, and the pendulum swings back the other way. People used to complain that browser widgets didn't confirm to the OS's UI guidelines. Then you…
Umm - a large group of most popular productivity apps are cross platform and look nothing like native - from dev tools like IDEA, VSCode over Slack, MS Office, to multimedia tools like Adobe tools, almost all 3D modeling software like maya, max, audio software like Ableton, FL. None of the apps I use on a day to day basis look native (ie. like the apps provided by Apple) You are confusing cross platform UI with frame…
The native apps you mention have heavy customization because they are meeting advanced professional needs. But these apps still participate in the platform's UI conventions. Menus, windows, etc. work like Mac or Windows users expect.
Electron apps are also heavily customized, but ignore platform UI conventions. The buttons may have lovely drop shadows, but basic interactions (menus, undo, drag and drop...) are routinely broken or work in some discordant, unfamiliar way. This isn't meeting professional needs; it's that web tech sucks for building actual apps.
And even if web tech improved, there's still the cultural bias towards re-invention and churn. Web dev will always cons up a button from a div and an onClick handler, no matter what the framework provides. There's no mechanism to get web apps onto a shared UI platform because the gravity of the web is dispersive.