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Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

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41–50 of 226 posts

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#41
post #2

There's no shortage of open area to put solar panels. If we put a (nearly) continuous strip in every highway median, that would be a huge step forward, and still take up practically zero useable space. Even 1% of the federally owned land in the sun belt would generate an enormous amount of power.

Yeah, land is not at a shortage. The best land for solar is also worthless for other things, so it tends to be dirt cheap. There's enough unused space in the Southeast US to power the entire world off of solar. Obviously that wouldn't work for other reasons, but underscores nicely how land isn't the issue at all.

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#42
post #24
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solar panels on roads idea has been tried. Rotting leaves were a big source of its failure. https://www.businessinsider.com/first-solar-road-france-fail...

Doesn’t matter. Much of the US roads aren’t anywhere near trees - ie the southwest. Huge amount of roads and solar power potential there too. Also, cleaning crews are a thing that have existed in the past and should again.

In the southwest, I'd imagine dust would be the biggest hindrance.

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#43

Not just crops and power. I know a guy whose startup is using transparent solar panels in Germany on eco-friendly buildings with grass on roofs, to get power and eco-cooling, as well as Oxygen production - at least that is how he explained it. The concept is called green-roofs. Unfortunately I don't remember his startup's name. A link with details about the concept, minus the use of transparent solar panels: https://…

Do they grow enough grass to produce enough oxygen for the building?

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Batteries are catching up. Are they? The US consumes 11.5TWh of electricity daily. It's estimated that it needs 3 weeks if storage to get to 100% carbon free [1]. By comparison global battery production in 2019 was 300GWh [2]. Even if you factor in the fact that the curve of battery production is rising, it'd take decades to fullfil just the US's storage demands with batteries. There are other storage options like…

They are [1]. It’s a self reinforcing cycle. For example, batteries are already cheaper than most gas peakers. That demand (along with EVs demand, primarily Tesla) ramps manufacturing capacity, realizing further cost declines along the way. Remember, the sun and wind are free once the turbines and panels are installed (both which last at least two decades). That’s what fossil and nuclear are competing against, and it…

Yes, the capacity is increasing. But there's still a massive disconnect between the amount of battery storage required to make renewables usable and the capacity that exists. The link I posted already factors in increasing demand, but the amount of battery production in these projections is still orders of magnitude lower than what is requires.

3 weeks of energy storage in the US works out to 240 TWh given its daily 11.5 TWh consumption. Even if we assume that the projections are accurate and that global battery production will reach 1 TWh in 2023 and 2 TWh per year in 2030, we're still talking about several decades worth of global battery production just to supply the United States' storage requirements. Even just reaching the 12 hours of storage required to reach 80% renewables is going to be difficult to achieve.

The reality is that storage even remotely close to what is necessary to run a country predominantly on intermittent sources has never been built. This is totally uncharted territory as far as energy infrastructure goes. And none of our current solutions are capable of delivering the required scale, save for geographically limited options like hydroelectricity. By comparison, multiple countries generate the majority of their electricity from nuclear power, and one has generated over 80% of its energy from nuclear. Between building a wholly novel solution and simply replicating an existing solution, the latter is almost always the easier task.

This thread is being rate limited, reply in edit:

> 1. Instantaneous excess can electrolyse water, producing hydrogen which can be converted into methane and stored/used in existing natural gas systems.

This is much more difficult to do than it sounds. In order to convert hydrogen into methane you need a source of carbon. The fraction of a percent of carbon that exists in the atmosphere cannot feasibly be used. The plans to use synthetic methane as energy storage are contingent on somehow capturing the carbon from burning a gas turbine. California tried to do this by pumping the exhaust into mine shaft, but a leak was sprung and the gas escaped. Not to mention, places without mineshafts nearby have to construct structures to store the exhaust.

> 2. Overcapacity in good times implies proportionally higher production in bad times, lowering the storage requirements.

No it does not. Overcapacity of solar doesn't make the sun shine at night. Overcapacity of wind somewhat increases production in less windy days, but a totally windless day still generates zero energy regardless of overcapacity.

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#45
post #19
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if the government were to take over the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in five year" -- Milton Friedman (exaggerating, somewhat) Better to put them on home roofs, and arrange for them to be owned by the homeowners, designed so that the occupants are (literally) empowered when the grid is mismanaged, as in California. On highway medians control is more centralized, and they would require more mainte…

Rooftop photovoltaic is currently more expensive, less efficient, and surprisingly dangerous to install. Solar thermal designs actually benefit from being on rooftops. As to dust, economies of scale make a huge difference. It’s rarely worth it, but using a farm truck to spray water across miles of panels is much more efficient than tens of thousands of homeowners doing the same.

First I’ve heard of solar thermal. Any good links?

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#46
Our area of Oregon recently banned new solar farms on the grounds that it detracts from the beauty of the landscape – a wine region with lots of tourism. Ironically, that very beauty is threatened by the changing climate, which clean energy could help mitigate.

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#47
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't there setups that can do both as well? i.e charge battery first and send excess to the grid?

The setups have to be separate (e.g. different outlets for mains and solar) to protect the grid. Even a small home solar installation puts out enough power to easily kill unsuspecting maintenance personell working on the grid, for example. So the utility company has to have 100% control over he mains at all time for safety reasons (i.e. your meter must never run backwards). If they cut the power (e.g. for maintenance…

Meters run backward intentionally when selling solar back to the utility. You need a switching system that will isolate immediately if the grid fails, and resync with the grid AC before reconnecting, if you want to be able to operate on and off the grid.

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Batteries are catching up. Are they? The US consumes 11.5TWh of electricity daily. It's estimated that it needs 3 weeks if storage to get to 100% carbon free [1]. By comparison global battery production in 2019 was 300GWh [2]. Even if you factor in the fact that the curve of battery production is rising, it'd take decades to fullfil just the US's storage demands with batteries. There are other storage options like…

Or stacking blocks https://qz.com/1355672/stacking-concrete-blocks-is-a-surpris...

Apparently each of these structures stores 20 MWh of energy. By comparison, the US consumes 11.5 TWh of electricity daily. To reach the 12 hours of storage estimated to be necessary to reach 80% renewable generation we'd need 287,500 of these towers. To reach the 3 weeks of storage necessary for 100% renewable generation we'd need 12,075,000 of these towers.

Re: Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production of crops and power

#50
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you spent much time driving in the empty areas of the west? You can go 100 miles without even seeing a tumbleweed.

I've been living in the west my whole life and have traveled between Colorado to California through Nevada, Utah, Arizona, etc 7 or 8 times, so yes I've seen an empty western road before. Tumbleweeds was tongue in cheek but there's plenty of dirt, trash and other flying debris that will get baked onto a glassy surface out southwest.

Well, even in the Sahara there's sand and sandstorms piling it on solar panels...

There's no place that's 100% immune from all dirt/leaves/etc.

Still shouldn't be much of a problem in practice...

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